Joaquin Phoenix to play the Joker in standalone movie

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I think Rainman did an excellent job of educating the general public about Autism relative to their potential strengths and limitations. People are generally ignorant of various conditions and classify the collective group into one category. Hoffman brought a deeper understanding as did the movie with Cruise exhibiting typical behaviour towards people with these conditions.

On this topic can you kill someone and not have a mental health issue? Can you just be a bad person or do we as a society have to find something mentally wrong with the person to justify it? Is just this how Arthur was and he was told from an early age he has to fix it?

Trust me, Rainman took all autistic people, threw them in a bubble and made a caricature of them using someone at the extreme end of the spectrum.

Everyone with autism has their own strengths and weaknesses, just like us neurotypicals.

It actually did more damage than good from everything I’ve experienced getting to know so many autistic people.

It’s a stupid ass movie and makes me roll my eyes every time I hear it mentioned.

Here is an autistic person’s own VP:
When One Of My Classmates Called Me ‘Rain Man’ | HuffPost

I could flood my post with many similar links, but hopefully it gets my point across.

I think with Arthur, you can’t get around his mental illness because the Joker has always been portrayed as mentally ill.

It’s fair to say his character does nothing positive for mentally ill people though.

When someone commits heinous crimes, I think it disturbs us so much that we want to find an underlying issue, like mental illness, to explain why it happened.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

If one goes out fearing "marginalized people" because of this movie, I'm not sure there's anything I can say to help.

I just watched Lethal Weapon 2 the other night, now I have to pay attention to all these German people around here because they can't be trusted. I suppose these could have been bad people from Germany, but the movie clearly told me all Germans were bad, so :shrug:

I mean if you want to reduce it to "every single race/nationality/personality trait/etc is the same", then sure this makes sense.

 

[David Dennison]

I think Rainman did an excellent job of educating the general public about Autism relative to their potential strengths and limitations. People are generally ignorant of various conditions and classify the collective group into one category. Hoffman brought a deeper understanding as did the movie with Cruise exhibiting typical behaviour towards people with these conditions.

On this topic can you kill someone and not have a mental health issue? Can you just be a bad person or do we as a society have to find something mentally wrong with the person to justify it? Is just this how Arthur was and he was told from an early age he has to fix it?

It depends on how general you want to be with the term mental illness, but there is a difference between mental illnesses like bipolar and schizophrenia and being a psychopath/sociopath. Plenty of murders are crimes of passion or greed, like murdering someone during a carjacking, would probably be perpetrated by a psychopath or sociopath. You murder someone for material gain and feel little to no remorse for it.

Arthur was portrayed as having schizophrenia or schizoaffective disorder (basing that on imagining the Zazie Beetz relationship), but people with those illnesses are more likely to be a victim of crime than perpetrator. The movie kind of showed this with his co-workers taking advantage of him and being harassed on the subway (and the environmental stuff like living in poverty, lack of access to health care, family history, etc), but it also kind of equated schizo with the Joker character and 'just want to see the world burn', which isn't correct.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

What does DC have to do with anything? Its not like their reputation has been great with superheroes lately.

Aquaman, Shazam, Wonder Woman, and Joker have all been very well received, their bombs have been the BvS and the JL movies, people seem to really want to hang on to that fact and completely ignore that the others I mentioned have been enjoyable movies and people trashing them while pimping the Marvel movies is the funniest ironic shit I have seen here.

Even Suicide Squad, a mess thanks to the studio interference (leadership has changed since then and the movies have gotten better because of it), has been pretty well received by fans although I didn't like it at all and I am glad Gunn is doing the 2nd movie and not Ayer.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Trust me, Rainman took all autistic people, threw them in a bubble and made a caricature of them using someone at the extreme end of the spectrum.

Everyone with autism has their own strengths and weaknesses, just like us neurotypicals.

It actually did more damage than good from everything I’ve experienced getting to know so many autistic people.

It’s a stupid ass movie and makes me roll my eyes every time I hear it mentioned.

Here is an autistic person’s own VP:
When One Of My Classmates Called Me ‘Rain Man’ | HuffPost

I could flood my post with many similar links, but hopefully it gets my point across.

I think the thing about that movie that people should take away is that it actually talks about it or even mentions Autism. Because movies after that haven't done it any more justice, my gf's friend, her kid has autism and like you, I know how damaging a movie like that can be for perception, but at that point in time, it at least got some conversation going about it, whether the bad portrayal or otherwise. I agree that some movies can definitely be damaging when discussing an mental illness or disability or whatever, but in some cases, even just mentioning it and bringing it into the forefront is not a bad thing, even if the portrayal of it is severely inaccurate.

I think with Arthur, you can’t get around his mental illness because the Joker has always been portrayed as mentally ill.

It’s fair to say his character does nothing positive for mentally ill people though.

When someone commits heinous crimes, I think it disturbs us so much that we want to find an underlying issue, like mental illness, to explain why it happened.

People wanted to make it about that, people attached the stuff he goes through as being depressed and having anxiety. Arthur's issues are that he was severely abused and has ill effects from it being a social outcast because the guy has brain damage from an abusive mother and her boyfriend.

I found it odd that people jumped straight to that narrative, oh he's depressed and I totes feel his pain! I wonder if those people actually really watched the movie and paid attention. Yeah he might be depressed but the circumstances that lead to what he does, is more about Joker as a whole. Joker might be mentally ill in the comics, but his whole shtick is that it takes a traumatic event in your life to be the same as he is and that's what the Killing Joke was about which this movie borrows a lot of elements from.

Joker/Arthur is a sad sack that tries to make it in life, gets taken advantage of because of his nature, but in this movie he is the way he is because of some brain damage he suffered as a kid and it's manifested some other things in his life.

But again, if it gets people talking about mental illnesses more, does it really matter? If it's accurately portrayed or not, its about getting that discussion out there and going, it's still such a taboo topic for people to talk about in their personal lives but this movie opens that door a little more, whether accurately portraying it or not.

 

[Ozz]

I mean if you want to reduce it to "every single race/nationality/personality trait/etc is the same", then sure this makes sense.

I'm not the one saying this movie puts mentally ill people in a bad light. I'm saying it puts one character, who is mentally ill, in a bad light. That's what bothers me about such reactions, when a story about one character is taken to mean it represents everybody similar.

 

[chicagoskycam]

Trust me, Rainman took all autistic people, threw them in a bubble and made a caricature of them using someone at the extreme end of the spectrum.

Everyone with autism has their own strengths and weaknesses, just like us neurotypicals.

It actually did more damage than good from everything I’ve experienced getting to know so many autistic people.

It’s a stupid ass movie and makes me roll my eyes every time I hear it mentioned.

Here is an autistic person’s own VP:
When One Of My Classmates Called Me ‘Rain Man’ | HuffPost

I could flood my post with many similar links, but hopefully it gets my point across.

I think with Arthur, you can’t get around his mental illness because the Joker has always been portrayed as mentally ill.

It’s fair to say his character does nothing positive for mentally ill people though.

When someone commits heinous crimes, I think it disturbs us so much that we want to find an underlying issue, like mental illness, to explain why it happened.

Disagree completely. When this movie came out autism awareness and research was practically non existent. Pre-internet it just was not something that people understood unless they personally knew someone. While Hoffman drew on many autistic individuals for this role I wouldn’t call it a caricature, even though it may not fit your experiences, agreeing it’s rare to have math skills similar to rainman. Good article below on the flood gates of research on autism opening up after the movies success. Also debates the topic,

Rain Man at 30: damaging stereotype or 'the best thing that happened to autism'?

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I'm not the one saying this movie puts mentally ill people in a bad light. I'm saying it puts one character, who is mentally ill, in a bad light. That's what bothers me about such reactions, when a story about one character is taken to mean it represents everybody similar.

Idiots in the media and people that wanted to make this about mass shootings and mental illness in a negative way, will always find a way.

People were making this movie out to be the next big motivator for mass shooters (like America really needed this movie to help the idiots that were already finding stupid ways to motivate themselves to do it) and were made into fools when nothing happened because of the movie.

The movie, like Rainman, whether it portrays an illness/disability or not accurately or not, sparks a dialogue for something that needs it. In this case, anyone that has actually seen the movie should be smart enough to know that his "illness/disability" is in large part, caused by severe head trauma from physical abuse and also emotional abuse from his Mother after the physical trauma in his youth.

But if it gets people openly speaking about mental illness and finding solutions to get people more help, f*** it, great.

I wonder if people actually watched the movie though, some of the comments that hate on it, seems like people just read a bunch of reviews and based their opinions after reading other peoples opinions and can't seem to form their own intelligent one from watching the movie.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I'm not the one saying this movie puts mentally ill people in a bad light. I'm saying it puts one character, who is mentally ill, in a bad light. That's what bothers me about such reactions, when a story about one character is taken to mean it represents everybody similar.

You can look at a single instance and see how that can potentially misinform or be an issue for a marginalized or minority group. It is possible to acknowledge it is a single instance but also look at how it is framed and what that means for the people watching it.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I coulldd not have been more excited about this movie, but it sucked, and it's not because Batman wasn't really in it, I knew that going in.

They got the Joker wrong, if you know anything about the Joker you know he's not getting his ass kicked by a group of grade 9 students that's not a thing.

He wasn't the Joker, the Joker is a crminal mastermind, this guy struggles with basic tasks, this guy can barely wash a dish,

I have a mild form of Cerbal Palasy I can. do at LEAST 10 times what this guy can.

You're supposed to fear the Joker, not ONE person on the planet capable of even the most basiclevel of thought would fear this version of the Joker.

And before I hear " You're supposed to feel sorry for him."

No you're f***ing not, the Joker is NOT a sympethic character

This movie wasn't done right

 

[Horse McHindu]

I coulldd not have been more excited about this movie, but it sucked, and it's not because Batman wasn't really in it, I knew that going in.

They got the Joker wrong, if you know anything about the Joker you know he's not getting his ass kicked by a group of grade 9 students that's not a thing.

He wasn't the Joker, the Joker is a crminal mastermind, this guy struggles with basic tasks, this guy can barely wash a dish,

I have a mild form of Cerbal Palasy I can. do at LEAST 10 times what this guy can.

You're supposed to fear the Joker, not ONE person on the planet capable of even the most basiclevel of thought would fear this version of the Joker.

And before I hear " You're supposed to feel sorry for him."

No you're ****ing not, the Joker is NOT a sympethic character

This movie wasn't done right

I agree with a lot of this (ie The Joker character in this movie wasn’t done correctly), but I also feel that if the movie *had* done The Joker character correctly,

1) It wouldn’t have drawn much at the Box Office since the real Joker is not a relatable character.

2) I’m not even sure if the movie would have been given the green light to be produced (ie the main protagonist of a movie being a complete and utter psychopath that was born like that).

In order for The Joker movie to fly, I think necessary concessions had to be made unfortunately.

 

[tacogeoff]

I coulldd not have been more excited about this movie, but it sucked, and it's not because Batman wasn't really in it, I knew that going in.

They got the Joker wrong, if you know anything about the Joker you know he's not getting his ass kicked by a group of grade 9 students that's not a thing.

He wasn't the Joker, the Joker is a crminal mastermind, this guy struggles with basic tasks, this guy can barely wash a dish,

I have a mild form of Cerbal Palasy I can. do at LEAST 10 times what this guy can.

You're supposed to fear the Joker, not ONE person on the planet capable of even the most basiclevel of thought would fear this version of the Joker.

And before I hear " You're supposed to feel sorry for him."

No you're ****ing not, the Joker is NOT a sympethic character

This movie wasn't done right

your right he was not the criminal mastermind Joker in this movie. He did not become the Joker and fully grasp/come to terms with his madness until near the very end when he murdered his "friend" from work (imo).

your not supposed to feel sorry for him at all, its an origin story of how he comes to terms with his madness and becomes the character of Joker. Its not a movie where he is a mad criminal kingpin right off the get go. They did a great job with this movie and I think if they ever do a sequel it will be the Joker you are looking for.

 

[Evincar]

I coulldd not have been more excited about this movie, but it sucked, and it's not because Batman wasn't really in it, I knew that going in.

They got the Joker wrong, if you know anything about the Joker you know he's not getting his ass kicked by a group of grade 9 students that's not a thing.

He wasn't the Joker, the Joker is a crminal mastermind, this guy struggles with basic tasks, this guy can barely wash a dish,

I have a mild form of Cerbal Palasy I can. do at LEAST 10 times what this guy can.

You're supposed to fear the Joker, not ONE person on the planet capable of even the most basiclevel of thought would fear this version of the Joker.

And before I hear " You're supposed to feel sorry for him."

No you're ****ing not, the Joker is NOT a sympethic character

This movie wasn't done right

You realize that the guy locked up in the asylum at the end is the actual Joker who is just making a story about a guy named Arthur Fleck? Besides if youve read the Killing Joke, than you would see that the failed stand up comedian is just a meek man who isnt some criminal mastermind before his transformation into the Joker.

 

[holy]

No one ever really knows who or what the Joker is. Kind of the point. It’s fun and interesting to see it re imagined however it is, and clearly this version did something for us.

I thought it was interesting that his misery gave him super powers as the film progressed. Well once he became joyful about what he was doing. I kind of just figured if it gave him the ability to be able to keep running after getting hit by a cab and then to manage to survive and dance after the ambulance crashed into the cop car, then maybe he gains in mental fortitude in the same way.

Once he kills his mother and father figure, he’s completely maniacal. I thought that was pretty cool.

 

[Jussi]

I coulldd not have been more excited about this movie, but it sucked, and it's not because Batman wasn't really in it, I knew that going in.

They got the Joker wrong, if you know anything about the Joker you know he's not getting his ass kicked by a group of grade 9 students that's not a thing.

He wasn't the Joker, the Joker is a crminal mastermind, this guy struggles with basic tasks, this guy can barely wash a dish,

I have a mild form of Cerbal Palasy I can. do at LEAST 10 times what this guy can.

You're supposed to fear the Joker, not ONE person on the planet capable of even the most basiclevel of thought would fear this version of the Joker.

And before I hear " You're supposed to feel sorry for him."

No you're ****ing not, the Joker is NOT a sympethic character

This movie wasn't done right

I finally watched this last night. I lost my mother just over two months ago (stomach cancer for the second time in a year, third in 5 years time) and due to Arthur taking care of a sick mother I felt I wasn't ready to see any possible imagery that might feel too similar to me. Well luckily that wasn't the case. Having just finished the Everything Wrong With Joker from CinemaSins, I kind of agree with what you wrote. While being a very well made, shot and acted movie, there's a lot of issues with this one. Depending on how much was true, it's obvious math wasn't a strong point for the writer or director when Arthur uses 8 bullets to kill the men in the subway with a gun that clearly doesn't hold as much. Plus so much STUFF. JUST. HAPPENS. For no logical reason at all. If so many of it didn't happen, then why did we waste almost two hours on it? So that's a Down for this movie. I mean 7/10.

I agree with a lot of this (ie The Joker character in this movie wasn’t done correctly), but I also feel that if the movie *had* done The Joker character correctly,

1) It wouldn’t have drawn much at the Box Office since the real Joker is not a relatable character.

2) I’m not even sure if the movie would have been given the green light to be produced (ie the main protagonist of a movie being a complete and utter psychopath that was born like that).

In order for The Joker movie to fly, I think necessary concessions had to be made unfortunately.

I feel that this movie would have worked better without the Joker character or Batman references.

your right he was not the criminal mastermind Joker in this movie. He did not become the Joker and fully grasp/come to terms with his madness until near the very end when he murdered his "friend" from work (imo).

your not supposed to feel sorry for him at all, its an origin story of how he comes to terms with his madness and becomes the character of Joker. Its not a movie where he is a mad criminal kingpin right off the get go. They did a great job with this movie and I think if they ever do a sequel it will be the Joker you are looking for.

If this movie's Joker existed in the same timeline as Arthur Fleck then he would be 60 by the time Bruce Wayne becomes Batman. It does not work.

 

[tacogeoff]

If this movie's Joker existed in the same timeline as Arthur Fleck then he would be 60 by the time Bruce Wayne becomes Batman. It does not work.

tbh I wouldn't really care about batman being in it. I would just like to watch his progression.

 

[The don godfather]

Easy oscar win for Joachim and that soundtrack is haunting will also win. Book it.

 

[Jussi]

tbh I wouldn't really care about batman being in it. I would just like to watch his progression.

But it wouldn't make sense to have Batman in his world because Batman would 30ish years younger than him and you can't have world with Joker and no Batman.

 

[Blackhawkswincup]

 

[Osprey]

I watched it a couple of nights ago and really disliked it. My review is in the Last Movie You Watched thread. I don't understand any of the nominations except for Best Actor.

Depending on how much was true, it's obvious math wasn't a strong point writer or director when Arthur uses 8 bullets to kill the men in the subway with a gun that clearly doesn't hold as much.

I noticed that, too. I even counted up the shots in my head before he finally killed the last guy and I think that I counted 5, so I scratched my head when he somehow shot 3 more times in quick succession.

Also, as I alluded to my review, why would the co-worker give him a gun and bullets and then lie to his boss to get Arthur fired? He wasn't afraid that Arthur would be mad about it and kill him? Also, if you were Arthur's boss and your odd co-worker might own a gun, would you really yell at him over the phone and say "You're fired!" instead of letting him go gently? Things like that just happen to propel the drama and set Arthur off, even though they're not realistic (and I know that it's a "comic" movie, but it was trying to be a realistic one).

 

[tacogeoff]

But it wouldn't make sense to have Batman in his world because Batman would 30ish years younger than him and you can't have world with Joker and no Batman.

Sure we can. The first film was a world with Joker and no Batman and it was great. or are you saying you cannot have a world with Joker and no Batman?

Joker has fought a lot of other superheroes in varies timelines throughout the comics and Joker has also died in multiple comics and has come back to life again and again. Which in turn could be exploited as a loophole to create one that will fall in this batman's timeline. Regardless it will be interesting to see how this shakes out if they do a sequel.

 

[tacogeoff]

I watched it a couple of nights ago and really disliked it. My review is in the Last Movie You Watched thread. I don't understand any of the nominations except for Best Actor.

I think it was a pretty polarizing film. Either you liked it or you did not and there doesn't seem to be much in-between. I personally dont see the issue with it being nominated for so many awards as I really enjoyed the film and believe it deserves these nominations. Where as for example Parasite which I watched earlier this week and found it to be enjoyable but nothing amazing was nominated for a ton of awards....which doesn't upset me as its different strokes for different folks.

 

[Osprey]

I think it was a pretty polarizing film. Either you liked it or you did not and there doesn't seem to be much in-between. I personally dont see the issue with it being nominated for so many awards as I really enjoyed the film and believe it deserves these nominations. Where as for example Parasite which I watched earlier this week and found it to be enjoyable but nothing amazing was nominated for a ton of awards....which doesn't upset me as its different strokes for different folks.

Yeah, I get "different strokes for different folks." That's largely why I try to grade films subjectively, for example, by saying "I really disliked it" as opposed to "this film is awful." It's just that, since this one was so polarizing, how did it get so many nominations? Only two thirds of critics wrote a positive review for it, and few were very positive, yet it's many of those same people who did the voting. I just don't get it. At least with Parasite, 98% of critics were positive about it, and most were very positive, so it's not nearly as surprising.

 

[tacogeoff]

Yeah, I get "different strokes for different folks." That's largely why I try to grade films subjectively, for example, by saying "I really disliked it" as opposed to "this film is awful." It's just that, since this one was so polarizing, how did it get so many nominations? Only two thirds of critics wrote a positive review for it, and few were very positive, yet it's many of those same people who did the voting. I just don't get it. At least with Parasite, 98% of critics were positive about it, and most were very positive, so it's not nearly as surprising.

I will be honest. I dont pay attention to award shows as I dont find their measurement of films relevant to my enjoyment and I also do not know about the nomination process. So how did it get so many nominations? no clue. Maybe they went back for a second viewing after public perception of the movie was pretty positive ? or maybe 2019 was a weaker year for film? beats me.