Confirmed with Link: Jiri Sekac traded for Devante Smith-Pelly Part 2

[Andy]

Gallagher got his first chance on a line with an 18 year old rookie and Prust. He wasn't given top 6 duties. He earned them.

Define "earning" them.

This is such a superficial cop-out argument. When Sekac did well with Eller on the third line and it started scoring, why didn't that earn him a promotion? When Sekac was in the top 6 and producing, why didn't he EARN remaining there? When he worked his ass off on the forecheck and on the backcheck, why didn't he earn it? When he was acknowledged by several posters and several points in the season as being the best player on the ice, even when he didn't put up points, why didn't that EARN him an extended chance?

 

[pepperMonkey]

Therrien hates his rookies:

Gallagher a 5th rounder, 5ft and small change earns his way onto the team at 20 years of age.

Galchenyuk earns his way at 18 years old but I guess Therrien was blinded by his 3rd draft pick status.

DLR at 19 after a few months of conditioning in the A earns a spot on the team.

Bournival at 21 earns a spot on the team

Thomas, Therrien doesn't seem to mind playing him.

Beaulieu at 22 is being used as a top 3 d-man.

Tinordi & Pateryn are both played ahead of Weaver.

But with Sekac Therrien put his foot down and refused to give him his chance. He obviously saw something he didn't like in Sekac's game. The only thing I didn't like was the public comments about lack of abilities. even if it was true, you don't make those comments.

Aside from that it looks to me like Therrien is quite opened to using young kids.

Oh you need to include Eller with Sekac

 

[Andy]

Out of the top 10 combos...

Eller 35.4+6.7+5+3.1=50.2%(70.6%)
Plekanec 4.2+3.9+3.5+3.2+2.7=17.5%(24.6%)
Desharnais 3.4=3.4%(4.8%)

Known=71.1%

Based on what we know, Sekac played almost 30% of his minutes on the top 2 lines. That's not "never getting a chance".

I wonder what percentage shows up for Weise?

Dude, playing 1 game, or 3-4 shifts that add up to those numbers isn't not getting a chance.

I also like how 17.5% has suddenly become 25%.

 

[ottawahabs]

Therrien hates his rookies:

Gallagher a 5th rounder, 5ft and small change earns his way onto the team at 20 years of age.

Galchenyuk earns his way at 18 years old but I guess Therrien was blinded by his 3rd draft pick status.

DLR at 19 after a few months of conditioning in the A earns a spot on the team.

Bournival at 21 earns a spot on the team

Thomas, Therrien doesn't seem to mind playing him.

Beaulieu at 22 is being used as a top 3 d-man.

Tinordi & Pateryn are both played ahead of Weaver.

But with Sekac Therrien put his foot down and refused to give him his chance. He obviously saw something he didn't like in Sekac's game. The only thing I didn't like was the public comments about lack of abilities. even if it was true, you don't make those comments.

Aside from that it looks to me like Therrien is quite opened to using young kids.

This should be stickies. I'm not the biggest Therrien fan, and some of his decisions puzzle me, but he does trust young players. He does have favorites, and his usage of DD puzzles me, but as far as criticism of Therrien goes, his usage of rookies is not the biggest issue. Most coaches people here idealize have a tendency to lean on older guys just as much, if not more than Therrien.

 

[Monctonscout]

Dude, playing 1 game, or 3-4 shifts that add up to those numbers isn't not getting a chance.

Amost 25% with Plekanec is the equivalent of 12 games. Just because it's not 12 straight games doesn't mean it's not an opportunity.

Weise didn't get 10 games to produce with Pacioretty, he'd get a shift here and there and it clicked, then early in the year he had an extended stretch there and produced well.

 

[Habs Icing]

Define "earning" them.

This is such a superficial cop-out argument. When Sekac did well with Eller on the third line and it started scoring, why didn't that earn him a promotion? When Sekac was in the top 6 and producing, why didn't he EARN remaining there? When he worked his ass off on the forecheck and on the backcheck, why didn't he earn it? When he was acknowledged by several posters and several points in the season as being the best player on the ice, even when he didn't put up points, why didn't that EARN him an extended chance?

Let's look at this from another POV. In my other post you saw all the rookies that Therrien has broken into the league. I think it was 7. He gave them their chances and it looks like he not only gave them their chance but he raves about most of them: Gallagher, Chucky, Beaulieu of late and even Thomas gets compliments.

So answer me after breaking in 7 rookies why would he deny Sekac? Was it because He hates blondes, or people who speak English with an accent sarcasm or Czechs?

Maybe just maybe he saw there was something wrong with his game and he wanted him to correct it before he got more important minutes.

 

[Monctonscout]

Pierre LeBrun ‏@Real_ESPNLeBrun · 4m4 minutes ago
Dallas Stars getting number of calls on pending UFA winger Erik Cole. Having a good year. Good pickup for a contender.

Bob McKenzie ‏@TSNBobMcKenzie · 8m8 minutes ago
Sense is CAR is narrowing the field of suitors on Sekera. Here's the link to @TSNHockey Trade Bait: http://www.tsn.ca/tsn-hockey-s-trade-bait-1.203546 …

 

[Andy]

Let's look at this from another POV. In my other post you saw all the rookies that Therrien has broken into the league. I think it was 7. He gave them their chances and it looks like he not only gave them their chance but he raves about most of them: Gallagher, Chucky, Beaulieu of late and even Thomas gets compliments.

So answer me after breaking in 7 rookies why would he deny Sekac? Was it because He hates blondes, or people who speak English with an accent sarcasm or Czechs?

Maybe just maybe he saw there was something wrong with his game and he wanted him to correct it before he got more important minutes.

Maybe, but it doesn't change the fact that he didn't really get a chance in MTL to show his offensive game. Regardless of why, he didn't. Now if Sekac goes on to be a scorer in Anaheim, well it will look very silly on the Habs brass given that they didn't try him as a scorer.

 

[417]

http://www.cs.unb.ca/~mwf/habs//forw_26JS.html

a) 17.5% on a line with Plekanec, which amounted to 9 whole games.
c) 1/4 = 25%
d) 17.5% =/= 25%
e) Of that 17.5%, 13.2% of the team, the other winger was Prust, Weise and Andrighetto.

In fact, he only once spent more than 2 consecutive games on a line with Plekanec, and that one time, he only spent four games there.

Well perhaps that should indicate to you that it wasn't working..and the coach's job is to win games and find solutions.

So contrary to what you've repeated for weeks about Sekac, he HAS gotten a chance.

He just wasn't able to capitalize, and you think that it's MT's fault, that he owes it to Sekac to continue to stick him like he has with Desharnais or Weise, when in truth, he's not obliged or required to do that at all.

 

[Andy]

Amost 25% with Plekanec is the equivalent of 12 games. Just because it's not 12 straight games doesn't mean it's not an opportunity.

Weise didn't get 10 games to produce with Pacioretty, he'd get a shift here and there and it clicked, then early in the year he had an extended stretch there and produced well.

Dude, with your fault math of 17.5% = 25% because only 71% is known, Dale Weise has spent almost 60% of the season in a top role., 42% of the time with Pacioretty.

 

[Andy]

Well perhaps that should indicate to you that it wasn't working..and the coach's job is to win games and find solutions.

So contrary to what you've repeated for weeks about Sekac, he HAS gotten a chance.

He just wasn't able to capitalize, and you think that it's MT's fault, that he owes it to Sekac to continue to stick him like he has with Desharnais or Weise, when in truth, he's not obliged or required to do that at all.

6 points (3g, 3a) in 8 games in the top 6, where the other winger was Weise, Prust and Angrighetto, what wasn't working about it?

He played 9 our 50 games in the top 6, and he never spent more than 2 consecutive games there, expect once, how is that remotely a chance?

 

[417]

Maybe, but it doesn't change the fact that he didn't really get a chance in MTL to show his offensive game. Regardless of why, he didn't. Now if Sekac goes on to be a scorer in Anaheim, well it will look very silly on the Habs brass given that they didn't try him as a scorer.

False: He got limited opportunities, which he didn't seize.

The head coach isn't required or obliged to give him anymore than that. The head coach decided he wasn't a big fan, time will tell if that was the most prudent decision and these are the types of decisions coaches/managers face everyday

still think the angst over this trade is completely unwarranted

 

[Kriss E]

Therrien hates his rookies:

Gallagher a 5th rounder, 5ft and small change earns his way onto the team at 20 years of age.

Galchenyuk earns his way at 18 years old but I guess Therrien was blinded by his 3rd draft pick status.

DLR at 19 after a few months of conditioning in the A earns a spot on the team.

Bournival at 21 earns a spot on the team

Thomas, Therrien doesn't seem to mind playing him.

Beaulieu at 22 is being used as a top 3 d-man.

Tinordi & Pateryn are both played ahead of Weaver.

But with Sekac Therrien put his foot down and refused to give him his chance. He obviously saw something he didn't like in Sekac's game. The only thing I didn't like was the public comments about lack of abilities. even if it was true, you don't make those comments.

Aside from that it looks to me like Therrien is quite opened to using young kids.

That's mostly because of injuries or Bergevin leaving openings on the roster.
Gallagher-Galchenyuk had their spot in their first camp.
Bournival was scratched for the whole month of October, he had to wait until Nov 4th until he got a chance, and when PAP comes back with DSP (and possibly another addition come deadline), he might find his way out of the line up again.
DLR has played 11 games, it's been a musical chair with these guys and if Moen/Bourque were still here, they probably would be part of it as well.

Beaulieu should have been in the line up last year learning the ropes. He was playing well until the Olympics. After the O, we decided not to call him back for apparently ''attitude'' reasons that are probably huge BS as they most often are. Douglas freaking Murray was favored to him.

Pateryn and Tinordi are playing ahead of Weaver because he proved to be quite bad this year. But he was given 30 games to get on top of it.

Therrien will use kids, but as a last resort. Once he uses them, unless they really show some light brilliance, the veterans usually come back to take over even if they're not better.

 

[Andy]

False: He got limited opportunities, which he didn't seize.

The head coach isn't required or obliged to give him anymore than that. The head coach decided he wasn't a big fan, time will tell if that was the most prudent decision and these are the types of decisions coaches/managers face everyday

still think the angst over this trade is completely unwarranted

He isn't required to give anyone anything, but I'm not going to blame a guy of not producing offense when he's in a defensive role, especially when he's a rookie with extremely limited NA experience.

It's like evaluating how well a D-man can play defense when you play as a 4th line forward.

 

[417]

6 points (3g, 3a) in 8 games in the top 6, where the other winger was Weise, Prust and Angrighetto, what wasn't working about it?

I recall that segment of games, I found it odd as well...but it's the coaches prerogative. We'll see if he was right, perhaps there were other factors at play here, how was his defensive play during that time? There are things that coaches look at that the average fan doesn't understand...I don't know, it's hard to say

But if we're to judge this trade today for what it's worth, these are 2 players of the same age, but different style

Look at our roster today, I personally think this team could use a player who is more like DSP than Sekac. I'm not as convinced as most here that Sekac's skill level is that much higher than DSP's, but we'll see how that plays out.

There's a part of me that agrees with you, I would of liked to have seen Sekac get more of a chance, but another part of me also acknowledges that he didn't seize many of the opportunities given to him. So it goes both ways

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

Amost 25% with Plekanec is the equivalent of 12 games. Just because it's not 12 straight games doesn't mean it's not an opportunity.

Just like 56 mins with Plekanec + Eller/Weise isn't the same kind of opportunity as 46 mins with Plekanec + Andrighetto/Galchenyuk. Those are the minutes, btw, c.f. 244 mins with Eller + Prust. There's a reason he ended up with under 45% offensive zone starts...

He produced decently in offensive situations, and the team still won its 2-1 games in front of Price when he was used more defensively. Still don't see how he's the guy who gets sent out of down before the trade deadline of his first season.

 

[417]

He isn't required to give anyone anything, but I'm not going to blame a guy of not producing offense when he's in a defensive role, especially when he's a rookie with extremely limited NA experience.

It's like evaluating how well a D-man can play defense when you play as a 4th line forward.

For me...I never really worry about production, I understand that it's mostly a question of circumstance and I agree with you that he wasn't placed in the most ideal situation to put up points.

It still doesn't explain how he's unable to generate any shot attempts when he's facing lesser competition, that for me is really telling, for a guy who is supposed to be an offensive player, he sure had A LOT of trouble providing any offense (and by this, I don't necessarily mean points) from wherever he played in the lineup.

I'd venture to guess that if for some reason, MT decided to use Galchenyuk on the
4th line for the next 5 games, he'd find a way to generate something offensively, at the very least, some scoring chances

For the last 2 months, it's been a whole lot of nothing with Sekac...

 

[Andy]

For the last 2 months, it's been a whole lot of nothing with Sekac...

It's funny you say the last two months, because in the last two months, he played only 2 games in the top6. His last two with the Canadiens, where he looked his best.

 

[Kriss E]

False: He got limited opportunities, which he didn't seize.

The head coach isn't required or obliged to give him anymore than that. The head coach decided he wasn't a big fan, time will tell if that was the most prudent decision and these are the types of decisions coaches/managers face everyday

still think the angst over this trade is completely unwarranted

What are you talking about?..
The guy got scratched after 6 damn games. SIX! If he was playing like crap and looked slow/lost, then fine. But he didn't. Him and Eller with Bourque actually looked pretty decent, but Bourque was up to his regular season self from last year. So that line couldn't buy a goal, but they were playing well and Sekac was impressing most.
After his 7 games in the doghouse, he comes back and scores 13pts in 24gp. This is while playing mostly with Eller-Prust.
That earned him a spot on the Rookie All-Star team.
After this success he got about a handful of games where he played next to Plekanec with another grinder like Weise or rookie like Andrighetto, where he got tougher minutes than with Eller. Him with Plek-Andrighetto actually looked pretty good. But it was split, and then he got a few tries with different lines.
But he wasn't given much time to stick with the same linemates. He was give very little PP opportunities too, but still managed to put up some pts there.
And then he got back to the 3rd line, again, not being used in a very offensive role.

You can argue that people are overrating him and exaggerating, and some are, but trying to argue that he didn't earn his chance or that he was given a fair amount of opportunities is even worse.

 

[HankyZetts]

I never thought that the notion of "Sekac wasn't really given much of an offensive chance" could be so controversial.

I don't even dislike the trade. I like both players and both teams got a project. I'm just upset that Sekac wasn't put in a position to display his offensive skill.

Maybe, but it doesn't change the fact that he didn't really get a chance in MTL to show his offensive game. Regardless of why, he didn't. Now if Sekac goes on to be a scorer in Anaheim, well it will look very silly on the Habs brass given that they didn't try him as a scorer.

Teams like Toronto are into pure "offensive players". In Montreal, it is paramount that all of our players play smart, responsible hockey at both ends of the ice. Even Chucky and PK had to go through this learning process, that's just the way it goes. Boudreau runs things differently so I really do see Sekac flourishing over there, but the same can be said for DSP and MT.

IMO Therrien's way is the winning way and Boudreau's style will always be at the mercy of the character and will of his lockeroom, fwiw.

 

[417]

It's funny you say the last two months, because in the last two months, he played only 2 games in the top6. His last two with the Canadiens, where he looked his best.

So he can only be of use and show something if he's used in a top 6 role???

That's ridiculous

 

[Andy]

Just interesting to note:

Sekac has spent a total of around 141 minutes in the top 6.

Dale Weise, has spent around 302 minutes in the top 6. 148 minutes with Pacioretty alone.

 

[Andy]

So he can only be of use and show something if he's used in a top 6 role???

That's ridiculous

How is it ridiculous? Wasn't that the very nature of the complaint that Pacioretty made against Martin?

So essentially, you want a 22 year old rookie with little NA expeirence to produce like a top 6 forward from the bottom 6 with a whole other host of guys who can't produce themselves.

 

[Ohashi_Jouzu*]

It's funny you say the last two months, because in the last two months, he played only 2 games in the top6. His last two with the Canadiens, where he looked his best.

I know right?

 

[Andy]

Teams like Toronto are into pure "offensive players". In Montreal, it is paramount that all of our players play smart, responsible hockey at both ends of the ice. Even Chucky and PK had to go through this learning process, that's just the way it goes. Boudreau runs things differently so I really do see Sekac flourishing over there, but the same can be said for DSP and MT.

IMO Therrien's way is the winning way and Boudreau's style will always be at the mercy of the character and will of his lockeroom, fwiw.

It's funny how when we acquired Sekac people were raving about his two-way game, talking about how he was nominated for the KHL Selke, and now he has become a "pure offensive" guy.

How about he's a 22 year old rookie who is being criticized for not producing from the bottom 6 on a team that struggles to score goals in general and who's bottom 6 just doesn't produce at all.