OT: Jimmy Vesey discussion continues ... Pt 2 (Signs with NYR)

[Mess]

Depends, you'd have to think you get more playing time on 30th place team and less on cup champion team.

I hope the leafs get him, and not because I think he's some superior prospect, but because it would be hilarious to watch Buffalo spend a 3rd for nothing

I would love to get him as well as he would be a top 5 prospect in the organization only behind Matthews, Nylander and Marner. So it would be a huge get for they Leafs.

However I was just pointing out if ** winning ** is his #1 goal then we're not sitting too well for offering that.

 

[Fogelhund]

Before the actual news of Vesey signing somewhere (hopefully the Leafs), I'm going to talk about this CBA loophole again. The entire CBA and draft system is designed to control contracts and indenture hockey players to individual NHL franchises for at least 7 years. This loophole for mostly American drafted NCAA players is ridiculous because the equivalent doesn't exist for CHL and European draftees. I hope they work to either patch this up OR better yet eliminate the draft altogether in the next CBA allowing every hockey player to choose his destination.

I understand the principle behind your view, however, Canadian players, and indeed Europeans have the choice to pursue a NCAA direction, or CHL, or play in Europe.

It isn't as if this option isn't available to everyone, as it is.

 

[deletethis]

I understand the principle behind your view, however, Canadian players, and indeed Europeans have the choice to pursue a NCAA direction, or CHL, or play in Europe.

It isn't as if this option isn't available to everyone, as it is.

Whether it's lacking the academic qualifications to get an NCAA placement or not having the choice of this option in their preferred route of development, no, it isn't available to everyone.

 

[Budsfan]

Agent: Vesey set to take patient approach

http://www.tsn.ca/agent-vesey-set-to-take-patient-approach-1.547119

Buffalo Sabres forward Jimmy Vesey is sticking with his plan to become an NHL free agent on Tuesday.

And Vesey's agent, Peter Fish, told The Associated Press on Monday that college hockey's top player is in no rush to sign his first contract.

"It's certainly not going to be tomorrow," Fish said. "I would say the earliest may be Friday or Saturday, but I wouldn't expect it to drag on much into the following week."

 

[Fogelhund]

Whether it's lacking the academic qualifications to get an NCAA placement or not having the choice of this option in their preferred route of development, no, it isn't available to everyone.

Lacking the academic qualifications has rarely been an obstacle for top athletes going the NCAA route.

Yes, people can choose their preferred route, and each path has it's benefits and negatives... this just happens to be one of the benefits of the NCAA route.

I see no reason why it isn't available to everyone.

 

[Leaf Lander]

Landing him is essentially like getting an extra first rnd pick.

But if you look at this yrs draft with mathews at top where would vessey go if he was also drafted this yr.
Top 5 top 10 top 15 top 20 between 21 and 3o

1 1 Toronto Auston Matthews C Zurich SC [Swiss-A]
1 2 Win Patrik Laine R Tappara Tampere [SM-liiga]
1 3 Col Pierre-Luc Dubois L Cape Breton S E[QMJHL]
1 4 Edmonton Jesse Puljujarvi R Karpat [SM-liiga]
1 5 Vanc Olli Juolevi D London Knights [OHL]
1 6 Cal Matthew Tkachuk L London Knights [OHL]
1 7 Ari Clayton Keller C U.S. National DeTeam [USHL]
1 8 BufAlexander Nylander L MissiSteelheads [OHL]
1 9 Mon Mikhail Sergachev D WinSpitfires [OHL]
1 10 Colorado Tyson Jost C Penticton Vees [BCHL]
1 11 Ottawa Logan Brown C Windsor Spitfires [OHL]
1 12 NJMichael McLeod C Missis Steelheads [OHL]
1 13 Carolina Jake Bean D Calgary Hitmen [WHL]
1 14 Bos Charles McAvoy D Boston University [H-East]
1 15 Min Luke Kunin C U. of Wisconsin [Big-10]
1 16 Arizona Jakob Chychrun D Sarnia Sting [OHL]
1 17 Nash Dante Fabbro D Penticton Vees [BCHL]
1 18 Win Logan Stanley D Windsor Spitfires [OHL]
1 19 NYI Kieffer Bellows L U.S. Nl D Team [USHL]
1 20 Det Dennis Cholowski D Chilliwack Chiefs [BCHL]
1 21 Car Julien Gauthier R Val d'Or Foreurs [QMJHL]
1 22 Philadelphia German Rubtsov C Russia U-18 team
1 23 Florida Henrik Borgstrom C HIFK Juniors (Finland)
1 24 Anaheim Max Jones L London Knights [OHL]
1 25 Dallas Riley Tufte L Fargo Force [USHL]
1 26 StL Tage Thompson C U. of Connecticut [H-East]
1 27 TB Brett Howden C Moose Jaw Warriors [WHL]
1 28 Was Lucas Johansen D Kelowna Rockets [WHL]
1 29 Bos Trent Frederic C U.S. ND Team [USHL]
1 30 Anaheim Sam Steel C Regina Pats [WHL]

 

[saltming]

Before the actual news of Vesey signing somewhere (hopefully the Leafs), I'm going to talk about this CBA loophole again. The entire CBA and draft system is designed to control contracts and indenture hockey players to individual NHL franchises for at least 7 years. This loophole for mostly American drafted NCAA players is ridiculous because the equivalent doesn't exist for CHL and European draftees. I hope they work to either patch this up OR better yet eliminate the draft altogether in the next CBA allowing every hockey player to choose his destination.

All businesses do this. It's how business is done.
I think this is a little overkill, these guys, even on the low end make millions in those years.

 

[Fogelhund]

Landing him is essentially like getting an extra first rnd pick.

But if you look at this yrs draft with mathews at top where would vessey go if he was also drafted this yr.
Top 5 top 10 top 15 top 20 between 21 and 3o

1 1 Toronto Auston Matthews C Zurich SC [Swiss-A]
1 2 Win Patrik Laine R Tappara Tampere [SM-liiga]
1 3 Col Pierre-Luc Dubois L Cape Breton S E[QMJHL]
1 4 Edmonton Jesse Puljujarvi R Karpat [SM-liiga]
1 5 Vanc Olli Juolevi D London Knights [OHL]
1 6 Cal Matthew Tkachuk L London Knights [OHL]
1 7 Ari Clayton Keller C U.S. National DeTeam [USHL]
1 8 BufAlexander Nylander L MissiSteelheads [OHL]
1 9 Mon Mikhail Sergachev D WinSpitfires [OHL]
1 10 Colorado Tyson Jost C Penticton Vees [BCHL]
1 11 Ottawa Logan Brown C Windsor Spitfires [OHL]
1 12 NJMichael McLeod C Missis Steelheads [OHL]
1 13 Carolina Jake Bean D Calgary Hitmen [WHL]
1 14 Bos Charles McAvoy D Boston University [H-East]
1 15 Min Luke Kunin C U. of Wisconsin [Big-10]
1 16 Arizona Jakob Chychrun D Sarnia Sting [OHL]
1 17 Nash Dante Fabbro D Penticton Vees [BCHL]
1 18 Win Logan Stanley D Windsor Spitfires [OHL]
1 19 NYI Kieffer Bellows L U.S. Nl D Team [USHL]
1 20 Det Dennis Cholowski D Chilliwack Chiefs [BCHL]
1 21 Car Julien Gauthier R Val d'Or Foreurs [QMJHL]
1 22 Philadelphia German Rubtsov C Russia U-18 team
1 23 Florida Henrik Borgstrom C HIFK Juniors (Finland)
1 24 Anaheim Max Jones L London Knights [OHL]
1 25 Dallas Riley Tufte L Fargo Force [USHL]
1 26 StL Tage Thompson C U. of Connecticut [H-East]
1 27 TB Brett Howden C Moose Jaw Warriors [WHL]
1 28 Was Lucas Johansen D Kelowna Rockets [WHL]
1 29 Bos Trent Frederic C U.S. ND Team [USHL]
1 30 Anaheim Sam Steel C Regina Pats [WHL]

TSN had him as the eighth best prospect not in the NHL, Another source had him at 15. So, he's probably close to top ten, though if not 10-15. Definitely a nice piece to add to the mix.

 

[BertCorbeau]

TSN had him as the eighth best prospect not in the NHL, Another source had him at 15. So, he's probably close to top ten, though if not 10-15. Definitely a nice piece to add to the mix.

He would basically be the cherry on top of what's been a tremendous off-season for the Leafs in terms of asset acquisition/management - drafting Matthews, signing Zaitsev, re-signing Rielly/Kadri to great valued long term deals .. Not going to include the Andersen deal since it's probably the most highly contested but it could be argued in that mix too.

Vesey would be a large add into the prospect pool that also fits a need. Not only in terms of size/style (a larger bodied power foward scorer), but also adds a good LWer into the mix - the Leafs main strength on the wings is on the right side right now.

 

[Daisy Jane]

the thing is too - Vesey's agent also stated that how teams treat their 2nd contracts-3rd contracts are important as well. Chicago, as long as they can milk anything/everything from their top end players, the players who get moved out are the Vesey-like people. See. TT this season, Saad last season, etc. etc.

Pittsburgh is also in cap hell. so as long as the cap is as low as it is, they could be in trouble too.

I know people want to make it into a whole "he could go and win etc." but if that was all it was, he could have signed in Nashville, who also has a good chance to win. so it's obviously other things outside of winning.

 

[deletethis]

All businesses do this. It's how business is done.

Not true. If Auston Matthews were the Auston Matthews of software engineering, he'd be free to join whatever organization he wished to join.

 

[saltming]

Not true. If Auston Matthews were the Auston Matthews of software engineering, he'd be free to join whatever organization he wished to join.

True but he would be offered a contract and it could be for 7 years and have may clauses and bonuses etc.

 

[BertCorbeau]

the thing is too - Vesey's agent also stated that how teams treat their 2nd contracts-3rd contracts are important as well. Chicago, as long as they can milk anything/everything from their top end players, the players who get moved out are the Vesey-like people. See. TT this season, Saad last season, etc. etc.

Pittsburgh is also in cap hell. so as long as the cap is as low as it is, they could be in trouble too.

I know people want to make it into a whole "he could go and win etc." but if that was all it was, he could have signed in Nashville, who also has a good chance to win. so it's obviously other things outside of winning.

That's the counter-argument the Leafs have to present to Vesey against signing with one of those teams that contending right now.

 

[saltming]

That's the counter-argument the Leafs have to present to Vesey against signing with one of those teams that contending right now.

I like that argument coupled with the 'we are the future come grow with us' aspect.
Be part of a foundation or be looked on as a coattails rider.

 

[deletethis]

True but he would be offered a contract and it could be for 7 years and have may clauses and bonuses etc.

I know you think you made a point for yourself but thanks for making my point for me that he'd be free to make whatever kind of deal he could find.

 

[saltming]

I know you think you made a point for yourself but thanks for making my point for me that he'd be free to make whatever kind of deal he could find.

Both points are valid.
I am not trying to invalidate your thoughts on this. I'm just saying it's not some aborhent practice.
At the end of the day these guys make millions playing a game they love.
Also all companies have entry level mid level and up contracts. As an engineer he would start at an established entry level and work his way up the pay scale just like any other job or the nhl.

 

[diceman934]

It is about 60% that he signs with us as of now.

This should happen Saturday afternoon.

 

[ShaneFalco]

It is about 60% that he signs with us as of now.

This should happen Saturday afternoon.

How do you figure?

 

[Caesium]

Landing him is essentially like getting an extra first rnd pick.

But if you look at this yrs draft with mathews at top where would vessey go if he was also drafted this yr.
Top 5 top 10 top 15 top 20 between 21 and 3o

1 1 Toronto Auston Matthews C Zurich SC [Swiss-A]
1 2 Win Patrik Laine R Tappara Tampere [SM-liiga]
1 3 Col Pierre-Luc Dubois L Cape Breton S E[QMJHL]
1 4 Edmonton Jesse Puljujarvi R Karpat [SM-liiga]
1 5 Vanc Olli Juolevi D London Knights [OHL]
1 6 Cal Matthew Tkachuk L London Knights [OHL]
1 7 Ari Clayton Keller C U.S. National DeTeam [USHL]
1 8 BufAlexander Nylander L MissiSteelheads [OHL]
1 9 Mon Mikhail Sergachev D WinSpitfires [OHL]
1 10 Colorado Tyson Jost C Penticton Vees [BCHL]
1 11 Ottawa Logan Brown C Windsor Spitfires [OHL]
1 12 NJMichael McLeod C Missis Steelheads [OHL]
1 13 Carolina Jake Bean D Calgary Hitmen [WHL]
1 14 Bos Charles McAvoy D Boston University [H-East]
1 15 Min Luke Kunin C U. of Wisconsin [Big-10]
1 16 Arizona Jakob Chychrun D Sarnia Sting [OHL]
1 17 Nash Dante Fabbro D Penticton Vees [BCHL]
1 18 Win Logan Stanley D Windsor Spitfires [OHL]
1 19 NYI Kieffer Bellows L U.S. Nl D Team [USHL]
1 20 Det Dennis Cholowski D Chilliwack Chiefs [BCHL]
1 21 Car Julien Gauthier R Val d'Or Foreurs [QMJHL]
1 22 Philadelphia German Rubtsov C Russia U-18 team
1 23 Florida Henrik Borgstrom C HIFK Juniors (Finland)
1 24 Anaheim Max Jones L London Knights [OHL]
1 25 Dallas Riley Tufte L Fargo Force [USHL]
1 26 StL Tage Thompson C U. of Connecticut [H-East]
1 27 TB Brett Howden C Moose Jaw Warriors [WHL]
1 28 Was Lucas Johansen D Kelowna Rockets [WHL]
1 29 Bos Trent Frederic C U.S. ND Team [USHL]
1 30 Anaheim Sam Steel C Regina Pats [WHL]

Well, Kyle Connor went 17th in last year's draft and is putting Vesey's 23 year old numbers to shame as a 19 year old. I wouldn't use a 1st round pick on Vesey.

 

[BertCorbeau]

How do you figure?

80% of the time diceman knows the odds all the time.

 

[LeafGm]

Before the actual news of Vesey signing somewhere (hopefully the Leafs), I'm going to talk about this CBA loophole again. The entire CBA and draft system is designed to control contracts and indenture hockey players to individual NHL franchises for at least 7 years. This loophole for mostly American drafted NCAA players is ridiculous because the equivalent doesn't exist for CHL and European draftees. I hope they work to either patch this up OR better yet eliminate the draft altogether in the next CBA allowing every hockey player to choose his destination.

I'm always irrationally irritated when people bring up the false narrative that is the supposed "loophole" for NCAA players.

To summarize briefly: THERE IS NO CBA LOOPHOLE FOR NCAA PLAYERS. Period.

All Jimmy Vesey did to make himself an unrestricted free agent was go for four entire years after being drafted without signing an NHL entry-level contract with any team. If Connor McDavid (or any other player drafted out of the CHL) had wanted to become an unrestricted free agent in exactly the same manner as Jimmy Vesey did, he could have. All he would have to do is, like Vesey, avoid signing with any NHL team for four years after being drafted, and he'd be free to sign anywhere.

In reality, NCAA players are even more restricted than their CHL counterparts. If a CHL draftee is determined to avoid going to the team that drafted him, he only has to wait two years without signing and he'll re-enter the draft. An NCAA player, on the other hand, has his NHL rights controlled by the team that drafted him for four years. Signing an NHL contract or staying with their current team is also an either/or proposition for NCAA players, while CHLers can sign their contracts, get paid big signing bonuses and remain in the CHL.

 

[SprDaVE]

That's a fine plan but they better have a plan to fix the roster glut and cap space.

 

[Liminality]

That's a fine plan but they better have a plan to fix the roster glut and cap space.

Button won't like this.

 

[NarcoPolo]

Why does everyone care so much about where this guy signs? Really just seems like your typical run of the mill top NCAA free agent that comes out of div 1 year after year.. A free asset sure but most likely projects to be a tweener imo

 

[diceman934]

Why does everyone care so much about where this guy signs? Really just seems like your typical run of the mill top NCAA free agent that comes out of div 1 year after year.. A free asset sure but most likely projects to be a tweener imo

Way different then the average NCAA free wallet....