News Article: Jimmy D. : "Red Wings won't 'sit back' in attempt to rebuild"

[jkutswings]

Holland is a big fish in the pool of NHL GMs, and - like Babcock - won't be appreciated until he's gone.

Babcock was loudly praised for much of his tenure here. That doesn't mean that a great coach (or GM, for that matter) can't eventually have his approach go stale in a given market, and need a change of venue as a good thing for both him and his previous organization.

 

[Dotter]

Having been a employee and a business owner. I have to say, telling a employee that they are easily replaceable is terrible decision and would only hurt the employee/ owners relationship.
As far as KH "totally mastering the rebuild" We won't know the answer to that for years. We're just getting started.

Wait. So let me get this straight. The owner will hurt the relationship if he gave precise and clear instructions in which the insubordinate willfully decided to completely and blatantly deviate from that ultimately caused swift termination, we are now worried the [unemployed] employee has "hurt feelings" and is "offended"? Am I reading this correctly?

 

[ChrisReevesLegs]

Babcock was loudly praised for much of his tenure here. That doesn't mean that a great coach (or GM, for that matter) can't eventually have his approach go stale in a given market, and need a change of venue as a good thing for both him and his previous organization.

With all due respect, I think the whole "stale voice" narrative is the most baseless load of crock.

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

Unless the NTC is waived.

Well of course, By the sound of things it sounds like Vanek might not waive this time. And i doubt Green would waive after only one season. When it's obvious he wanted to remain with the Wings.

 

[Obe2kenobe]

Wait. So let me get this straight. The owner will hurt the relationship if he gave precise and clear instructions in which the insubordinate willfully decided to completely and blatantly deviate from that ultimately caused swift termination, we are now worried the [unemployed] employee has "hurt feelings" and is "offended"? Am I reading this correctly?

No. Not the fired ex-employee. Your current employees.
Maybe I didn't word what I was trying to say exactly right.
Sorry, I don't English good.

 

[The Zermanator]

With all due respect, I think the whole "stale voice" narrative is the most baseless load of crock.

Let's see what Henrik Zetterberg thinks about the matter:

“There’s a lot of guys in here who’ve been through the same stuff for many years,” Zetterberg said. “I think now with the additions of [defenceman Mike] Green and [centre Brad] Richards, and the new coach [Jeff Blashill], it’s given us a little fresh start. Obviously, it’s going to be a different voice behind the bench and sometimes you need that.”

And Nicklas Lidstrom:

"A younger coach coming in, a coach with hunger and drive -- not to say [Babcock] didn't have that -- but a new voice in the locker room could help some of the veteran players get recharged again."

With all due respect, I think two team captains and all-time Wings legends who played under him speak from a place of authority on the matter.

EDIT: Here are the links

Zetterberg on Babcock: 'It was time' for change in Detroit - Sportsnet.ca
Lidstrom says Blashill's 'new voice' will help Detroit

 

[Reddwit]

With all due respect, I think the whole "stale voice" narrative is the most baseless load of crock.

This is a concept that is reflected and replicated in pretty much every corner of the business world.

 

[Reddwit]

Having been a employee and a business owner. I have to say, telling a employee that they are easily replaceable is terrible decision and would only hurt the employee/ owners relationship.
As far as KH "totally mastering the rebuild" We won't know the answer to that for years. We're just getting started.

But that in and of itself is part of the debate. A huge source of criticism was all the water-treading Detroit did while the writing was on the wall.

 

[jkutswings]

This is a concept that is reflected and replicated in pretty much every corner of the business world.

And by every parent that has had their child(ren) ignore their perfectly sensible advice, only to watch another adult repeat the exact same message, and the kid(s) eat it up. It's human nature to sometimes have the right idea, but need a new voice to relay it to the audience.

 

[kliq]

This is a concept that is reflected and replicated in pretty much every corner of the business world.

Sorry but I completely disagree with this. You don't need a change in direction in business because "a voice has gone stale", you make a change when business is going down, or bad decisions are being made. If a CEO is doing a great job for an extended period of time, you dont fire them just to "freshen things up". Many successful business have leaders that are there doing a great job for a long period of time.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Sorry but I completely disagree with this. You don't need a change in direction in business because "a voice has gone stale", you make a change when business is going down, or bad decisions are being made. If a CEO is doing a great job for an extended period of time, you dont fire them just to "freshen things up". Many successful business have leaders that are there doing a great job for a long period of time.

You don't think the "business" in this case was going down, or that bad decisions were being made?

 

[Frk It]

“Stale voice” only really pertains to the coach, and basically everyone has said coaches have a shelf life in major pro sports.

With GM, you are more talking about their approach. The landscape of the NHL is ever-changing, it’s a copycat league, so you literally have to keep finding the competitive advantage over and over.

Holland did that and was the guy everyone was chasing for awhile. Blazed the trail with our European scouting, shrewd but smart trades, etc. But a lot of his peers adopted his tactics and then built on them and he fell behind a bit over the years.

Honestly I don’t know that it’s realistic to expect anyone to be the trendsetter forever, it is what it is. Holland has probably became more of a middle of the pack guy IMO. We could definitely do worse, but hopefully we get Yzerman and do better.

 

[Winger98]

GMs/Owners: the best owners shut up and write checks unless they think something is wrong in the state of denmark. Then they change the GM and get out of the way again. It doesn't reflect well on ownership for that period if they stepped in and pushed for something that wasn't necessarily in the best interests of the club. At the same time, I think it's part of the GM's job to make it clear to ownership where the franchise is and what should be the best course of action. Sometimes that gets you fired - I think Dombrowski was shown the door largely because he had to go to Ilitch and say it was over. Did Holland make that same stand, or just go along? Who knows, and at this point I'm not sure it matters.

“Stale voice” only really pertains to the coach, and basically everyone has said coaches have a shelf life in major pro sports.

With GM, you are more talking about their approach. The landscape of the NHL is ever-changing, it’s a copycat league, so you literally have to keep finding the competitive advantage over and over.

Holland did that and was the guy everyone was chasing for awhile. Blazed the trail with our European scouting, shrewd but smart trades, etc. But a lot of his peers adopted his tactics and then built on them and he fell behind a bit over the years.

Honestly I don’t know that it’s realistic to expect anyone to be the trendsetter forever, it is what it is. Holland has probably became more of a middle of the pack guy IMO. We could definitely do worse, but hopefully we get Yzerman and do better.

I think one thing that's never changed with Holland is his eye for talent. By most accounts he has taken a far more active role in going out and seeing kids play. We talk about how our drafting seems to be getting better up and down the board and who to apply that to...well, how much could be Holland going out and having a more informed first hand opinion?

To go with that, when our scouting hit that slump in the mid/late 2000s and Nil was reportedly running the draft, I'm betting Holland was at his least involved.

 

[taylorjonl]

At my work they replaced the voice that was stale, we all said it can't get any worse, guess what, it got a lot worse. Change in leadership isn't always good, it is just a change.

 

[Reddwit]

At my work they replaced the voice that was stale, we all said it can't get any worse, guess what, it got a lot worse. Change in leadership isn't always good, it is just a change.

Anecdotal evidence isn't generally regarded as sound logic and no one ever said change in leadership is always good.

 

[FissionFire]

I have no doubt they will be aggressive. Holland will be aggressively agreeing to the Seattle GM job while Jimmy aggressively blows on the paper to dry the ink on the contract Yzerman signs to be the new GM.

 

[kliq]

You don't think the "business" in this case was going down, or that bad decisions were being made?

My response has nothing to do with holland and or babs, my response was directed at the notion that having a fresh voice is something that is done in all corners of business. I don’t agree with that notion.

Wheather or not that applies to the wings is a different conversation.

 

[ChrisReevesLegs]

Let's see what Henrik Zetterberg thinks about the matter:


And Nicklas Lidstrom:


With all due respect, I think two team captains and all-time Wings legends who played under him speak from a place of authority on the matter.

EDIT: Here are the links

Zetterberg on Babcock: 'It was time' for change in Detroit - Sportsnet.ca
Lidstrom says Blashill's 'new voice' will help Detroit

What did you expect Zberg and Lidstrom to say publicly? Blashill sucks and the team should have tried harder to retain Babs? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not that naive.

Do you like the way Blashill coaches this team? Who do you think is a superior coach, Blash or Babs? If coaches truly do have shelf lives, what do you believe that shelf life is?

This is a concept that is reflected and replicated in pretty much every corner of the business world.

This is now the second biggest load of crock I've heard

Sorry but I completely disagree with this. You don't need a change in direction in business because "a voice has gone stale", you make a change when business is going down, or bad decisions are being made. If a CEO is doing a great job for an extended period of time, you dont fire them just to "freshen things up". Many successful business have leaders that are there doing a great job for a long period of time.

Found the intelligent businessman

You don't think the "business" in this case was going down, or that bad decisions were being made?

You thought bad coaching was our problem lmao?

“Stale voice” only really pertains to the coach, and basically everyone has said coaches have a shelf life in major pro sports.

With GM, you are more talking about their approach. The landscape of the NHL is ever-changing, it’s a copycat league, so you literally have to keep finding the competitive advantage over and over.

Holland did that and was the guy everyone was chasing for awhile. Blazed the trail with our European scouting, shrewd but smart trades, etc. But a lot of his peers adopted his tactics and then built on them and he fell behind a bit over the years.

Honestly I don’t know that it’s realistic to expect anyone to be the trendsetter forever, it is what it is. Holland has probably became more of a middle of the pack guy IMO. We could definitely do worse, but hopefully we get Yzerman and do better.

What do you say the shelf life of a coach is? Are you happy with Blashill as a coach? Do you honestly think Babcock was the reason this team was on the decline during his switch to Toronto?

 

[The Zermanator]

What did you expect Zberg and Lidstrom to say publicly? Blashill sucks and the team should have tried harder to retain Babs? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not that naive.

Do you like the way Blashill coaches this team? Who do you think is a superior coach, Blash or Babs? If coaches truly do have shelf lives, what do you believe that shelf life is?

I'm not going to get into this with you. I've seen the tenor of your conversations over several different threads now.

You said it was a crock, so I showed you two players who are infinitely more qualified to speak on the matter than either of us directly dispute that. But apparently you know what they're really thinking despite what they said publicly. Lidstrom was long retired at that point so no reason to sugarcoat anything, and the tension between Zetterberg and Babcock had been well documented by that point. If that ain't enough for you then nothing will be. Cheers.

 

[Frk It]

I don’t know if Armstrong would accept an Advisor role, but he would be a great guy to add to the front office.

Have absolutely loved how STL has drafted during his tenure with Tarasenko, Schwartz, Parayko, Dunn, Kyrou, Thomas, Kostin, Bokk, etc.

 

[ChrisReevesLegs]

I'm not going to get into this with you. I've seen the tenor of your conversations over several different threads now.

You said it was a crock, so I showed you two players who are infinitely more qualified to speak on the matter than either of us directly dispute that. But apparently you know what they're really thinking despite what they said publicly. Lidstrom was long retired at that point so no reason to sugarcoat anything, and the tension between Zetterberg and Babcock had been well documented by that point. If that ain't enough for you then nothing will be. Cheers.

Well I'm sorry that my tenor is too much for you to handle. Shame.

I am not claiming to know what Lidstrom and Zetterberg are really thinking at all. I simply think you're being extremely naive to ignore that politics plays a heavy hand in those statements. We could probably fire Blashill tomorrow and hire a drunk chimpanzee to replace him and Zberg and Lids would say something nice about the organization and the drunk chimpanzee. They're both good ol boys. Behind closed door maybe you'd get a different response.

In regards to Zberg and Babs, I will acknowledge that this is indeed documented. Zberg has both sung Babcocks praises and noted that they've clashed at times... that's not at all out of the ordinary. In fact I'd make the argument that many times more clashing with a coach is good. I had by far my best seasons when I hated my coach. An old quote about Scotty comes to mind...

 

[Ezekial]

I don’t know if Armstrong would accept an Advisor role, but he would be a great guy to add to the front office.

Have absolutely loved how STL has drafted during his tenure with Tarasenko, Schwartz, Parayko, Dunn, Kyrou, Thomas, Kostin, Bokk, etc.

Yea I agree, and none of those guys were picked in the top 13. Schwartz the highest at 14.

 

[Mister Ed]

I wonder at what point do the trades for picks and younger assets will start? They are currently on a hot streak, but it doesn't seem sustainable (as much I would like to see them continue).

After Christmas break? Closer to the deadline? At the draft?

 

[Henkka]

I wonder at what point do the trades for picks and younger assets will start? They are currently on a hot streak, but it doesn't seem sustainable (as much I would like to see them continue).

After Christmas break? Closer to the deadline? At the draft?

Closer at the deadline, when the buyers will start calling.

Hard to sell when there's no buyers and everybody tries their own kids at this time of the season.

When contenders have evaluated their own kids between games 20-60, and know who ain't ready yet, then they start adding trade deadline veterans.

Also deadline cap space "growing" has a big effect, why the deals happen every year almost as late as possible.

Only some season-ending injury could push some team for an earlier trade. Like goalie injury, then Howard would become interesting option. Like some contender's Starter goes rest of the season in LTIR, and then they can add a guy like Howard in. With short-term injury, they'll wait until the deadlineand try to survive with a backup.

 

[Dotter]

I wonder at what point do the trades for picks and younger assets will start? They are currently on a hot streak, but it doesn't seem sustainable (as much I would like to see them continue).

After Christmas break? Closer to the deadline? At the draft?

Probably when trades at deadline start to get hot and GMs who are looking to beef up their team start getting antsy.