Discussion in 'Vancouver Canucks' started by FacepalmBenning, Jan 23, 2019.
The difference is, you’re expected to hit on first round picks (especially top 10).
I agree but no one nails all of their picks even the top 10 ones. Benning’s drafting has been above average. Not amazing by any stretch but not terrible like some posters here think
I think this is a reasonable take, although I would peg it closer to average than above average. He does have Petterson, Boeser, Gaudette to show for it already, so 2 stars and a middle 6 forward. Thats not bad, considering we never draft in the top 3, where you can reasonably expect to draft a star player (there is usually at least 1-2 "can't miss" in each draft, save for 2017). He also has something to show for the later rounds, like Demko, Tryamkin, Forsling, Dipietro, etc. Not great like Boston/TB/Anaheim, but also not horrible like Edmonton/Arizona.
I have issues with JB's other abilities such as vision, building a team, pro-scouting. But drafting I think he is average, could be better but could be worse too.
Again, your quote wasn't sourced so I have no idea what the context is. My reference to "management" was inclusive of scouting staff. Nobody ever accused Benning of "interference" so I don't know why a source to that effect would be required.
And come on, man. The quote clearly identifies Brackett as pushing for Pettersson, with no mention of Benning. It's hard to think of who else would the Director of Amateur Scouting have to be "adamant" against, if not the General Manager. It's not really a stretch at all to infer that Benning was less than on board with the Pettersson pick and had to be convinced.
The amount of effort you're putting into not understanding this is telling.
I got my quotes from the Province...I have no idea who they were adamant against..could be a higher ranked member of the scouting department.?.It could even be Linden himself..?.The 'healthy' debate is part of the process ..
Brackett is the director of amateur scouting. Who else would be above him when it comes to a decision like this? Benning, maybe Linden? You can't just pretend like its a total mystery who Brackett would have to push back against. I don't mean to be rude, but if you don't think this suggests at least a real possibility that Benning wasn't fully on board with the Pettersson pick, it really seems like you're willfully refusing to acknowledge the obvious.
The healthy debate process is a big part of Canucks scouting..there’s a possibility Benning wasn’t on board..There’s a possibility Linden wasn’t on board..Until there’s a quote linking the ‘rumor ‘..I’m not buying it.
St Anger was a much maligned album that was far better than most give it credit for. People just knock it because it’s Elmer’s fav album.
Apparently Delmore was the first to push for Petterson. Then Gardin jumps on board. Obviously Brackett is also on board. It really should be Benning they are pushing, because Linden is obviously not qualified to make a scouting decision.
The only other source of push back might be the WHL scouts if they are trying to put Glass over Petterson in the final ranking? But WHL is Delmore's region so I don't think he would on one hand push for Petterson, then on the other hand argue to have Glass over him.
It really should be Benning that the scouts had to convinced in the end, IMO.
Adding to that, Benning is going to have his preferences in terms of the type of skillset he was looking for. It's no secret that #1 C and PP QB is on his wishlist. At the end, I don't see Benning overruling his scouts. If the scouts arrived at a clear consensus with his guidelines in mind, there's not going to be a whole lot of "convincing" needed.
Yea I think that's how scouting should work. The GM set up guidelines and what attributes he looks for, his scouts go out and watch the games, they come back with their opinion on those players and the GM decide who to draft. The GM might have his own opinions especially in regards to the top prospects (say first round?), but ultimately the scouts are there to advise him on who is better overall, and who has the better attributes that the GM wants.
It shouldn't be taken as a good thing or a bad thing that a GM is "convinced" by his staff to pick a player, thats what the scouts are there for.
Benning said it almost isn't worth acquiring first round picks outside the top 19 (approx; the exact quote escapes me) - so here's a little research project an oldtimer like myself dug into to see how many decent NHLers were taken in the final 11 positions of the past 10 drafts. Bear with me...
20 - Anthony Mantha (2013); Nick Schmaltz (2014); Dennis Cholowski (2016); Robert Thomas (2017)
21 - John Moore (2009); Colin White (2015); Filip Chytil (2017)
22- Olli Maatta (2012); Kasperi Kapanen (2014);
23 - Mike Matheson (2012); Andre Burakovsky (2013); Brock Boeser (2015);
24- Marcus Johansson (2009); Kevin Hayes (2010); Travis Konecny (2015);
25- David Pastrnak (2014); Jack Roslovic (2015);
26- Kyle Palmieri (2009); Kuznetsov (2010); Philip Danault (2011); Shea Theodore (2013);
27- Vlad Namestnikov (2011);
28 - Brady Skjei (2012); Anthony Beauvillier (2015);
29- Adrian Kempe (2014); Henri Jokiharju (2017)
30- Brock Nelson (2010); Rikard Rakell (2011); Tanner Pearson (2012);
31 - Mikko Koskinen (2009);
None of this is to say the Canucks could have had any of these; this, plus a few other regular-types who could possible make the Canucks (I argue all the above would - individually - be positive additions to the lineup), just shows the fallacy to Benning's logic, if it is that. Half the time I think he's throwing things out there in a lame defence of a direction he has been told not to reveal to the public -- we're not rebuilding really, we're all-in for a mutant restoration!.. At one point he says draft picks are hard to come by (despite them being used often in deals by other teams), then he has a track record of throwing picks into deals. He talks about acquiring them, but when it appears to be part of his 'to-do list' because the draft is in Vancouver, he lamely recoups a sixth, then a seventh. The odds of those turning out? A lot longer than a top-31 pick. He wants gap-fillers now, but doesn't see that through the draft he could develop his own (if you trust the team's development crew) and add cheap roster replacement players to cut loose or quantify as TD assets to move. His free agent signings have been too rich, he's extended players too early and too long term. This is a nightmare, as while we watch him hem and haw about a third-string goalie, there is actually a clock in play. That's the window for players like Horvat, Stetcher, Boeser and now Pettersson. The longer he delays and puts this horrible team on the ice, all the while treading water to avoid finding the floor, the further a return to respectability gets. He's Jack Gordon, but one with a longer leash.
We can all probably agree at this point that his average drafting isn't enough to compensate for his league worst pro scouting, contract negotiating, cap management, roster management etc. etc. etc.
I’d rate it even higher than that (drafting). A shame he shows no aptitude in all the other duties of a general manager.
Its the part that should get delegated to the scouts, the most.
I'm pretty sure something was lost in transition on that Delorme tidbit, like wtf would he of all people be the first one to see and push for Pettersson? From what I recall of where it came from it sounded like he was the first one to bring Pettersson to managements attention, in which case it could be something as simple as Gradin was scouting Pettersson in Europe then touching base with the scouting team mentioned him to Delorme who due to proximity was in the office and got to be the first to mention him to upper management.
You obviously spent a lot of time typing this up,but its somewhat of a garbage post..Every other GM passed on these players as well..You do get the odd (hit the jackpot) David Pastrnak or Marcus Johansson,but usually you end up with a player like Brendan Gaunce.
Benning drafted Boeser after 19, so if he really said that, that’s a pretty stupid ****ing quote.
“There’s no point in getting those extra picks, like, after 19 ya know, cause they don’t turn into Brocks or, like, anything like that”.
Is this draft suppose to be deep? For some reason I recall JB stating this... I believe the top 12-16 in round 1 are high end talent.. drops a bit after that but still good prospects to be had in deeper rounds.
you must have misread it He didn’t say anything about benning picking those players just that bennings logic that first round picks after 19 aren’t worth it is flawed due to these players being available.
Yea it makes no sense, but thats the quote directly from management. Benning seems too honest in all his other interviews, plus I don't see why he will lie in this instance (to prop up Delorme? but why?).
Anyways, none of the management team's action and/or words make much sense anyways, so this doesn't surprise me either.
Wasn't that JB quote said in reference to a return on Alex Edler?..What would you prefer?..a late 1st,or Alex Edler..?
If he’s such a drafting guru, surely he could get something better than Edler with a late pick...
Sure, I don't disagree with any of this. Nobody is saying a GM and scouts shouldn't be having a debate a very early first round pick.
That being said, the initial proposition was that Benning rubber stamped the Pettersson pick and seemingly had to be won over. The quote in question suggests that was the case. The further implication being that the credit Benning deserves for the Pettersson pick should be limited if it turns out he wanted to draft someone else and had to be won over by the scouting staff.
You seem to be viewing this black or white. The quote never implied or suggested that Benning had to be won over. It's not that hard to understand. A group of friends can argue about where to go and what to do and be able to arrive at a consensus. Benning appears to trust his staff, especially Judd Brackett. If I was to read into everything that was shown and or reported, it appears the real debate may have centered around Makar vs Petersson. Benning himself have spoken about the need for a playmaking C and PP QB so you know that's the type of skillset/player he was looking for. When asked the specific question, he honestly said it would have been a hard one. When asked about other players who were available at 5, Benning didn't really pay it any mind. That's not to say there weren't other scouts who argue in favour of say Glass or Mittelstadt. At the end of the day, there's strong evidence to suggest that the Canucks' list had Petersson near the top of the list if not the top.
Your last comment is also a curious one. Jim Benning is ultimately the GM and is responsible for his draft record. If he simply let his scouts pick and without his input and his drafts produce nothing that's on him. If he actually wanted to draft someone else but ultimately listened to his scouts and the guy he wanted to draft was a whole lot better, that's on him. In the same token, if he chose to listen to his scouts and the guy they ultimately drafted was a whole lot better than the guy Benning initially wanted to draft then he deserves as much credit as any other GM for having drafted a good player.
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