Jim Coleman Conference Finals - NJ Swamp Devils (1) vs Orillia Terriers (3)

TheDevilMadeMe

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I think it would be fair to call Lowe an elite defensive defenseman, no? Who was better defensively, Bourque, Stevens, Ramsey....

Probably Brad McCrimmon too.

I guess Lowe probably is a borderline elite defensive defenseman, but you know what? So were Adam Foote, Dave Burrows, and the aforementioned Mike Ramsey. In terms of overall game, I just can't see any of this category of player beating out Lutchenko's well-rounded game.

I would imagine we have different opinions on Kevin Lowe - I never would have even considering drafting him as high as you did, when I see him as basically interchangeable with several other #3/#4 tweener defensive defensemen. To be fair, that's as high as Lowe usually goes.

I believe you said in another thread that Wade Redden and Jack Portland on your team might be just as good as Lowe? I think that there's a case there - Redden's longevity stinks and Portland faced weaker competition so I think they are probably a little bit behind - but there's at least a case. To me, that speaks to the weakness of Lowe as a "#3" as much as it does to the strength of those guys as #4/#5s.

I do agree with you that the Soviet forwards were generally better than their defensemen, but I guess I just can't conceive of a world where Lutchenko was so far ahead of every other Soviet defenseman (other than Vasiliev, who was indeed better) that he was named 1st Team All-Star 7 years in a row, yet he wasn't better than NHL defensemen who never made a single All-Star team. He was a 1970s defenseman - by the mid-late 1970s, the Soviet defensemen as a group had figured out how to move the puck in a way that they weren't really able to do in the Summit Series.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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If we're going to ride the Soviet all-stars, why wouldn't we count Bower's all-time AHL all-star record? The AHL of the 6 team era was a better league than any of the other non-NHL leagues of any era. 3 Calder Cups, 3 MVPs, 5 x 1st All-Star. Sure, we can say those aren't peak years, but they sure as hell are great years for longevity.

As for Bower's competition for his accolades, they weren't just a little better. Bower or Belfour probably have the toughest competition of all time.

The AHL of the 1960s was probably deeper than the Soviet league ever was, but the high end talent (you know, those who actually compete for awards) was nowhere close to the best that the Soviets had. And of course, you're well aware of that, as you drafted Firsov in the top 100.

That said, I do think that Bower should get some credit for what he did in the AHL; especially as a goalie when the NHL only had room for 6 starters. On the flip side, I considered chastising you for using Bower's 4th and 5th place finishes in NHL All-Star voting when there were only 6 starters in the league, but since Hainsworth had more 4th and 5th place finishes than Bower (in a league that was slightly larger), I just rolled with it.

That said, it's quite possible that Bower's AHL MVP seasons are more impressive than his 4th and 5th place rankings in a 6 team NHL...
 
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ImporterExporter

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Do we know who the Soviet Dmen were behind Vasiliev and Lutchenko as far as AS voting went in the 70's? 1st and 2nd AS teams are always worth something but the value varies depending on depth of talent.

The old Soviet AS Team thread was never repaired.
 

Theokritos

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Do we know who the Soviet Dmen were behind Vasiliev and Lutchenko as far as AS voting went in the 70's? 1st and 2nd AS teams are always worth something but the value varies depending on depth of talent.

The old Soviet AS Team thread was never repaired.

The All-stars were named by the Soviet hockey federation, but unfortunately we don't really know who picked them or how they were selected. There are no voting records that I am aware of. However, the Soviet hockey federation also published an annual list of (usually 34) "Best Players" and we know how those were determined. The International & European Award & All-Star Voting thread has those lists. See posts #9 and #10 there. They provide you with a list of circa 10 defencemen that the Soviet league coaches and the members of the hockey presidium considered the best in individual seasons.
 

ImporterExporter

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The All-stars were named by the Soviet hockey federation, but unfortunately we don't really know who picked them or how they were selected. There are no voting records that I am aware of. However, the Soviet hockey federation also published an annual list of (usually 34) "Best Players" and we know how those were determined. The International & European Award & All-Star Voting thread has those lists. See posts #9 and #10 there. They provide you with a list of circa 10 defencemen that the Soviet league coaches and the members of the hockey presidium considered the best in individual seasons.

Much appreciated sir!
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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There's obviously a wide range for how good the secondary Soviet stars like Lutchenko could have been. FWIW back in 2017, Sturminator had Lutchenko in the 72nd - 77th range all-time, the same tier as Art Ross, Sergei Gonchar, Ryan Suter, Jack Craword, and Alexander Ragulin, which I think is pretty fair:

Sturminator said:
Orr = 1

+ Harvey, Bourque = 3

+ Lidstrom, Potvin, Kelly, Shore = 7

+ Robinson, Fetisov = 9

+ Chelios, Park = 11

+ Pilote, Clancy, Coffey = 14

+ MacInnis, Pronger, Cleghorn, Seibert, Stevens, Horton = 20

+ Clapper, Gadsby, Salming, Leetch, Chara = 25

----------------------- #1 D ^^

+ Howe, Quackenbush, Vasiliev = 28

+ Lapointe, Savard, Gerard = 31

+ Langway, Stewart, Tremblay, Weber, Keith, Blake, Goodfellow = 38

+ Niedermayer, L. Conacher, Pronovost, Laperriere, C. Johnson = 43

+ G. Boucher, E. Johnson, Kasatonov, Stuart = 47

+ Murphy, Siebert, Brewer, Coulter = 51

----------------------- #2 D ^^

+ Cameron, Reardon, Pospisil, Suchy, Doughty = 56

+ T. Johnson, Mantha, Bouchard, Thomson = 60

+ Stanley, Wilson, L. Patrick, Howell, Flaman, White, Karlsson = 67

+ Zubov, Stapleton, Desjardins, Gardiner = 71

+ Ross, Lutchenko, Gonchar, R. Suter, Crawford, Ragulin = 77

----------------------- #3 D ^^

+ Pulford, Hitchman, McCrimmon, Hall, Wentworth, Goldham, G. Suter, D. Hatcher, Mohns = 86

+ Neilson, Mortson, Day, Baun, Grant, Horner, Schoenfeld, Vasko, Beck, Duncan = 96

+ Heller, Cook, Boyle, Pratt = 100

----------------------- #4 D ^^

+ F. Patrick, Ramsey, Svedberg, Lowe, Boivin, Simpson, Green, Burns, Reise Jr., Dutton = 110

+ Foote, Rowe, Davydov, Harper, Konstantinov, Housley = 116

+ Sologubov, Harris, Harmon, Kuzkin, Burrows, Numminen, Bergman = 123

+ Watson, K. Hatcher, Griffis, Carlyle, Hollett, Seiling= 129

----------------------- #5 D ^^

...and so on.

Yes, it's just the opinion of one person, albeit someone who watched quite a bit of international hockey in the 70s.

But the thing is, Lutchenko doesn't have to be on that level to still be better than the likes of Kevin Lowe, Wade Redden, and Flash Hollett.

(Note also that Sturm said his opinion of Hollett went up a bit with the info that his play as a forward was why he didn't get much all-star voting at D early in his career, rather than terrible defensive play).
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Why NJ should win
  • Orillia's top line depends very heavily on the great Gordie Howe to score - if NJ can slow down Howe, we can slow down Orillia's top line, and I think that with the combination of Tony Leswick, backed up by Stanley-Seibert, we have the horses to slow down Howe.
  • On the flip side, Orillia does not have the horses to slow down NJ's top line. NJ's top line is the best line that Orillia has faced so far, and this is where Orillia's biggest weakness - the inability to put together a top notch shutdown defensive pairing - really hurts them.
  • Having a strong shutdown pairing also helps NJ quite a bit on the PK - as both teams invested in an all-time elite net presence (Tim Kerr, Camille Henry). Kerr and Henry are each only useful at one thing at this level - but they are among the best ever at it!
  • From a team construction standpoint, Orillia is going to have to give the Spezza line a fair number of offensive zone draws, because nobody wants them to play defense. This takes away from the offensive potential of their top 2 lines, at least a little bit.
  • From a talent perspective, Orillia's huge advantage is the strength of their 2nd line - it is almost certainly the strongest second line in the draft!
  • From a talent perspective, NJ's huge advantage is a significantly stronger blueline. NJ has substantial advantages at #1 (Seibert) and #3 (Lutchenko). I think that the awards voting that we do have for Hollett (NJ's #4) shows him to be at least somewhat better than Kevin Lowe, Wade Redden, and Jack Portland - meaning NJ's #4 is at least a little better than whoever is Orillia's #3. Finally, on the bottom pairing, I think that Yandle is a potential liability at even strength (though he's an adequate 1st unit PP guy who was drafted at a bargain). In my opinion, having a stronger blueline top to bottom outweights the strength of Orillia's 2nd line
I'll be much more present here the next two days than I was the last two if you want to discuss this more, but I wanted to get this out here, now that voting is starting.
 
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Dreakmur

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I would imagine we have different opinions on Kevin Lowe - I never would have even considering drafting him as high as you did, when I see him as basically interchangeable with several other #3/#4 tweener defensive defensemen. To be fair, that's as high as Lowe usually goes.

I think Lowe is under-rated. I think he lost a significant amount of deserved voting recognition by playing on a team playing behind Paul Coffey.

I believe you said in another thread that Wade Redden and Jack Portland on your team might be just as good as Lowe? I think that there's a case there - Redden's longevity stinks and Portland faced weaker competition so I think they are probably a little bit behind - but there's at least a case. To me, that speaks to the weakness of Lowe as a "#3" as much as it does to the strength of those guys as #4/#5s.

Redden has like 12 seasons as a quality top pairing defenseman. 5 seasons of Norris recognition sandwiched around a lockout season where he was the best defenseman at a best-on-best IIHF championship.

I do agree with you that the Soviet forwards were generally better than their defensemen, but I guess I just can't conceive of a world where Lutchenko was so far ahead of every other Soviet defenseman (other than Vasiliev, who was indeed better) that he was named 1st Team All-Star 7 years in a row, yet he wasn't better than NHL defensemen who never made a single All-Star team. He was a 1970s defenseman - by the mid-late 1970s, the Soviet defensemen as a group had figured out how to move the puck in a way that they weren't really able to do in the Summit Series.

How often were those all-star teams made up exclusively from the CSKA roster?
 

Dreakmur

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Orillia's top line depends very heavily on the great Gordie Howe to score - if NJ can slow down Howe, we can slow down Orillia's top line, and I think that with the combination of Tony Leswick, backed up by Stanley-Seibert, we have the horses to slow down Howe.

Yes, Howe will carry the offense for Orillia top line. That's no different than Lafleur on New Jersey's line.

On the flip side, Orillia does not have the horses to slow down NJ's top line. NJ's top line is the best line that Orillia has faced so far, and this is where Orillia's biggest weakness - the inability to put together a top notch shutdown defensive pairing - really hurts them.

Orillia's horse are the top 2 lines.

The Prentice-Toews-Howe line can physically dominate the puck battles and control the puck. As Ken Hitchcock himself said about Mario Lemieux - he's the best defensive player in the league, since he always has the puck!

Having a strong shutdown pairing also helps NJ quite a bit on the PK

Once New Jersey had completed their top-6, they still needed PK forwards. Orillia didn't.

From a team construction standpoint, Orillia is going to have to give the Spezza line a fair number of offensive zone draws, because nobody wants them to play defense. This takes away from the offensive potential of their top 2 lines, at least a little bit.

It also makes it nearly impossible to target that line's defensive deficiencies.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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How often were those all-star teams made up exclusively from the CSKA roster?

The short answer:

Almost never, and never during Lutchenko's 7 year stretch of All-Star nods.

Non-CSKA Soviet League All-Stars:

1971: Maltsev (Dinamo) at C
1972: Maltsev (Dinamo) at C
1973: Vasiliev (Dinamo) at D
1974: Vasiliev (Dinamo) at D, Maltsev (Dinamo) at C
1975: Vasiliev (Dinamo) at D
1976: Vasiliev (Dinamo) at D, Yakushev (Spartak) at LW, Shalimov (Spartak) at RW
1977: Vasiliev (Dinamo) at D, Balderus (Riga) at LW*

Note prime Petrov played on CSKA and was beaten out numerous times by Maltsev for All-Star C.

Edit: if we care about Soviet domestic championships, we should probably care at least a little that Lutchenko was the #1 defenseman on the CSKA team that won the title almost ever year. But maybe we don't care about Soviet domestic championships.

The longer answer:

The Soviet domestic league didn't exist just to be a competitive league; it existed largely to prepare the USSR players for international tournaments, where they could showcase the superiority of communism or something.

Politics aside, the best players from the Soviet league almost exclusively played for the 3 major Moscow clubs - CSKA, Dinamo, and Spartak, with CSKA the best of them all. So it shouldn't be surprising that most of the All-Stars played for CSKA, as it had most of the best players.

See how the Latvian Balderus made the All-Star Team in 1977 for Riga - the very next year, he was assigned to CSKA. CSKA won most of the All-Star nods because they were assigned most of the best players; with the other 2 major Moscow clubs generally getting the rest.

There's a reason CSKA won the vast majority of Soviet domestic championships, with Dinamo or Spartak usually the runner up: List of Soviet and Russian ice hockey champions - Wikipedia

Also, it's pretty clear that international tournaments played some part in Soviet awards records at that time - they weren't just based on domestic play.

Edit: This was actually an interesting question to research, thanks for that
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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Yes, Howe will carry the offense for Orillia top line. That's no different than Lafleur on New Jersey's line.

It's pretty different, as Abel and Krutov are pretty good offensive 1st liners themselves, while Prentice and Toews are more "glue guy" types at this level.

Because of that, Orillia's defense can't "cheat" towards Lafleur as much as NJ's can cheat towards Howe.
 

Dreakmur

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It's pretty different, as Abel and Krutov are pretty good offensive 1st liners themselves, while Prentice and Toews are more "glue guy" types at this level.

Because of that, Orillia's defense can't "cheat" towards Lafleur as much as NJ's can cheat towards Howe.

At even strength, Abel isn't much better offensively than Toews. At even strength, I think Prentice is a lot closer to Krutov than you do.

As for cheating, that goes for more than just scoring. When only certain guys back-check, that impacts the whole line's ability to disrupt opposing rushes. When only certain guys go into the corners and battle, that impacts the whole lines ability to retrieve the puck on a consistent basis. When only certain guys play good defense, the same thing goes. Most systems require every player on the ice to execute. One weak link and the whole thing falls apart.
 

Dreakmur

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The short answer:

Almost never, and never during Lutchenko's 7 year stretch of All-Star nods.

Non-CSKA Soviet League All-Stars:

1971: Maltsev (Dinamo) at C
1972: Maltsev (Dinamo) at C
1973: Vasiliev (Dinamo) at D
1974: Vasiliev (Dinamo) at D, Maltsev (Dinamo) at C
1975: Vasiliev (Dinamo) at D
1976: Vasiliev (Dinamo) at D, Yakushev (Spartak) at LW, Shalimov (Spartak) at RW
1977: Vasiliev (Dinamo) at D, Balderus (Riga) at LW*

Note prime Petrov played on CSKA and was beaten out numerous times by Maltsev for All-Star C.

Edit: if we care about Soviet domestic championships, we should probably care at least a little that Lutchenko was the #1 defenseman on the CSKA team that won the title almost ever year. But maybe we don't care about Soviet domestic championships.

The longer answer:

The Soviet domestic league didn't exist just to be a competitive league; it existed largely to prepare the USSR players for international tournaments, where they could showcase the superiority of communism or something.

Politics aside, the best players from the Soviet league almost exclusively played for the 3 major Moscow clubs - CSKA, Dinamo, and Spartak, with CSKA the best of them all. So it shouldn't be surprising that most of the All-Stars played for CSKA, as it had most of the best players.

See how the Latvian Balderus made the All-Star Team in 1977 for Riga - the very next year, he was assigned to CSKA. CSKA won most of the All-Star nods because they were assigned most of the best players; with the other 2 major Moscow clubs generally getting the rest.

There's a reason CSKA won the vast majority of Soviet domestic championships, with Dinamo or Spartak usually the runner up: List of Soviet and Russian ice hockey champions - Wikipedia

Also, it's pretty clear that international tournaments played some part in Soviet awards records at that time - they weren't just based on domestic play.

Edit: This was actually an interesting question to research, thanks for that

I guess I'm just wondering if there's an actual cause and effect. For a long stretch, the Vezina winner looks to have automatically been voted the 1st All-star goalie. So, the 1st all-star didn't necessarily go to the best goalie.

Were the best defensemen actually on the CSKA team, or were they just the guys who bought into the system, and that team made them look better. Based on how bad they looked playing against Canada, I'm not sure.
 

Dreakmur

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It means that Soviet forwards were much better, than Canadian ones.

Honestly, I think the Soviets has every advantage in that series and lost anyway. They just took it way more seriously. They were a real team. They had chemistry. They had a rigid system that every player understood and executed. They went into the series with something to prove.

The NHL players were all out of shape. They weren’t a team. They didn’t have a system. They had to build chemistry on the fly. They didn’t take it seriously at all.
 

Dreakmur

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Stop. I thought that you called Soviet D very bad. If "bad" D had an advantage over Canadian' it means that Canadian's D was awful.

So you don’t think that the soviets came into that series at peak physical condition, and the Canadians cane in at significantly less than that?

You think that the soviets didn’t have a polished team system and well-established chemistry, while the Canadians were a thrown-together group?

You don’t think the soviets meticulously scouted and game-planned for the series, while the Canadians didn’t.

You don’t think that the soviets went into this series knowing they’d have to be at 100% just to compete, while the Canadians thought it would be a cakewalk?
 

Dreakmur

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Hard to imagine what would have Bobby Clarke done if he took it seriously.

They eventually did take the soviets seriously, but they certainly didn’t go into it that way.

Had they come into the series well-prepared, do you think I it would have been that close?
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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I think the older generation of Soviet D looked pretty bad in the 1972 Summit Series mainly because they weren't very good at moving the puck out of harm's way, but as the 1970s went on, the Soviet defense adapted and became better. Still not as good as Canada, but (for the purposes of this series), Lutchenko doesn't have to be anywhere close to as good as the second best Canadian defenseman at any given time to be better than guys like Lowe and Redden and Hollett.

Vasiliev and Lutchenko were only 23 in 1972.
 

Dreakmur

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I think the older generation of Soviet D looked pretty bad in the 1972 Summit Series mainly because they weren't very good at moving the puck out of harm's way, but as the 1970s went on, the Soviet defense adapted and became better. Still not as good as Canada, but (for the purposes of this series), Lutchenko doesn't have to be anywhere close to as good as the second best Canadian defenseman at any given time to be better than guys like Lowe and Redden and Hollett.

Does he have to be better than guys like Gary Bergman and Don Awrey?

Vasiliev and Lutchenko were only 23 in 1972.

Which would be considered prime years for those Soviets, right? Most of them were done before 30.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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Does he have to be better than guys like Gary Bergman and Don Awrey?
IMO, yes. Awrey wasn't even any good in the Summit Series, and Bergman was ok, same as Lutchenko. And Lutchenko continued to improve against Canada.

Which would be considered prime years for those Soviets, right? Most of them were done before 30.

Yes, the point was that they were still young enough to adapt their games later on. 1972 was the first time the Soviets ever played NHLers (and visa versa); they should get a little slack for not knowing what they were in for at first. From my viewings (and I'm not the only one to think this), the Soviet defense generally looked a little better every time they played Canada.
 

Dreakmur

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IMO, yes. Awrey wasn't even any good in the Summit Series, and Bergman was ok, same as Lutchenko. And Lutchenko continued to improve against Canada.



Yes, the point was that they were still young enough to adapt their games later on. 1972 was the first time the Soviets ever played NHLers (and visa versa); they should get a little slack for not knowing what they were in for at first. From my viewings (and I'm not the only one to think this), the Soviet defense generally looked a little better every time they played Canada.

Yes, the soviets improved as they got used to their opponent. Canada did the same thing, but to a larger extent, since they came in far less prepared.
 

Namba 17

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So you don’t think that the soviets came into that series at peak physical condition, and the Canadians cane in at significantly less than that?

You think that the soviets didn’t have a polished team system and well-established chemistry, while the Canadians were a thrown-together group?

You don’t think the soviets meticulously scouted and game-planned for the series, while the Canadians didn’t.

You don’t think that the soviets went into this series knowing they’d have to be at 100% just to compete, while the Canadians thought it would be a cakewalk?
I'm preparing a longread.
Be ready for a disappointment ;)
 

Namba 17

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So you don’t think that the soviets came into that series at peak physical condition, and the Canadians cane in at significantly less than that?

Надо сказать, что вообще к этому сезону, к этим играм мы готовились в клубах практически, готовились к сезону, к чемпионату СССР, и за две недели нас только собрали на централизованные сборы, где мы уже начали готовиться. Мы вылетали, там 28 августа, по-моему, 29, а усиленно сборы 15 где-то, в 15-х числах августа, и вместе уже начали готовиться к этим играм.

For these games we prepared in our clubs, in fact we prepared to the USSR championship. Only two weeks before departure we were gathered as national team and began to prepare [as national team]. Our flight was at 28 of august, AFAIR, or 29 and we were gathered around 15th.
(A.Yakushev Встреча с Александром Якушевым / Радио Маяк)

- Вы спросите, почему канадцам проиграли московскую cуперсерию. Александр Николаевич знает.
Мы притихли.
- Молодой человек в Сочи ездил. - динамовский гендиректор кивнул в сторону Мальцева.
Тот расхохотался:
- Это я виноват, значит?
- Так что стряслось? - попытались перехватить инициативу мы.
- Нас Бобров перед московскими матчами отпустил. Руководство неожиданно предоставило выходные. Если б мы к этим играм готовились так же, как к канадским, наверняка победили бы. ...Тренироваться мы начали за три дня до стартового матча.

- Ask him, why did we lose Moscow part of the SS.
- ??? (Moment of silence. )
- This guy went to the Sochi [USSR main sea resort] - Dynamo' CEO showed to Maltsev.
Maltsev laughed:
- So, that's my fault, isn't it?
- What happened?
- Bobrov let the team to have a rest. We suddenly got holidays. If we were preparing to this part of the SS as we did to the games in the Canada we would have win. We came back to training 3 days before the starting game.
(A.Maltsev. Александр Мальцев: к Андропову с сухарями)

А. Мальцев: «Нас Бобров перед московскими матчами отпустил отдохнуть. Руководство неожиданно предоставило выходные. Если б мы к этим играм готовились так же, как к канадским, наверняка победили бы.
A. Maltsev: Bobrov let us the rest before the Moscow games. Authorities suddenly made a holidays for us. If we werep preparing to these games the way we prepared to the Canadian's we would have win"
(Читать - Оглавление - Книга)

You think that the soviets didn’t have a polished team system and well-established chemistry, while the Canadians were a thrown-together group?
Historical note.
After OG-72 (3–13 February) Chernyshov and Tarasov resigned and Bobrov was appointed as a head coach.

На смену Тарасову пришел Всеволод Бобров — тренер другой формации

Tarasov was changed by Bobrov - completely different coach
(B. Mikhailov №38 (849) / Спорт / Exclusive / Канадаходцы)


Ну, здесь сравнивать стиль работы Тарасова и Чернышева вообще нельзя, Тарасова и Боброва вообще нельзя, потому что это абсолютные антиподы во всем. В принципе, в ведении тренировок, в общении, это разные абсолютно люди. Здесь сказать, что этот плохой или этот хороший, нельзя, они просто разные сами по себе, видели хоккей совсем другими глазами, подготовку видели совсем другими глазами.

You can't compare Tarasov and Chernyshov style and Bobrov' style. They were antipodes in everything. In trainings, in communications they were completely different persons. They had different approach to both hockey and training process.
(A.Yakushev Встреча с Александром Якушевым / Радио Маяк)

Сразу после летних сборов 1971 года сборная СССР собралась снова, на этот раз чтобы провести короткое турне по ФРГ ...В немецком турне ... больше всех голов в этом турне забила армейская тройка нападения Михайлов – Петров – Харламов ...
Однако столь высокая скорострельность этого звена не остановила тогда Тарасова от мысли… разрушить это звено, изъяв из него Харламова. ... И в голове у Тарасова созрела идея создать суперпятерку ЦСКА и сборной в которую бы вошли нападающие Анатолий Фирсов, Валерий Харламов и Владимир Викулов, а также двое защитников в лице Александра Рагулина и Геннадия Цыганкова. Пятерка создавалась с дальним прицелом: во-первых, чтобы выиграть Олимпиаду, во-вторых – чтобы дай бой канадским профессионалам...
Сознательный отказ от Фирсова резко ослабил сборную, хотя, казалось бы, замена его самим Мальцевым могла быть равноценной. К сожалению, новый тренер не понимал (или не хотел понимать?!), что пятерка с Фирсовым во главе являлась выразителем нового построения игры, нового типа хоккея, в который в Канаде «еще не играли». Ключевые функции Фирсова в этом звене больше никто выполнить не мог. Как говорится, в этом наборе исполнителей был только «штучный товар». Бобров же, механически заменив Фирсова Мальцевым и разрушив тактическую схему нового типа, посчитал свою задачу решенной…
Бобров просто не понимал суть системы «форварды – хавбеки – стоппер». Будучи великим игроком прошлого и оставшись, по сути, игроком уже в тренерском качестве, он по-прежнему все воспринимал на уровне интуитивном, чувственном (нравится – не нравится, хочу – не хочу, могу – не могу), но никак и никогда аналитически осознанно. ... Внутри звена получался концептуальный разлад, разнобой.

Right after the summer camp of the 1971 USSR national team had a small tournament in Germany. The best line was [new line] Kharlamov - Petrov - Mikhalov.
But this didn't stop Tarasov from taking Kharlamov out of this line. He had a plan to create a super-unit Kharlamov - Firsov - Vikulov - Ragulin - Tsygankov ["system" with stopper, 2 halfbecks, 2 forwards]. This unit should have won the upcoming OG and played against the Canadian's professionals.
Firsov absence loosened the national team dramatically. New coach (Bobrov) didn't understand (or didn't want to understand), that unit with Firsov is a new principle of the game, new type of hockey. Nobody could played key Firsov' role in that scheme. Bobrov mechanically exchanged Firsov for Maltsev and ruined everything. Bobrov just didn't realize the main idea of the system with forwards, halfbecks and stopper. Being the great player of the past he remained the player in the coach chair. He perceived everything by intuition but not by logic or analytics. Line didn't play as a unit, there were no chemistry.
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...Остальные наигрывались уже по ходу Суперсерии
Например, в первом звене вместе с Мальцевым и Харламовым играли: спартаковец Вячеслав Старшинов (во второй игре), армеец Борис Михайлов (во второй), армеец Евгений Мишаков (в седьмой, вместо Харламова). .. Паладьев – Ляпкин сыграли лишь один матч (первый), после чего вместе уже не играли, поскольку Паладьева один раз свели с динамовцем Валерием Васильевым (четвертая игра), а Ляпкин играл с армейцем Владимиром Лутченко (5—7-я игры). А Васильев играл то с Юрием Шаталовым из «Крыльев Советов» (третья игра), то с Ляпкиным (восьмая игра).
Тасовалось и спартаковское звено, к которому подключали то Василия Солодухина из ленинградского СКА (третья игра), то Александра Мартынюка из того же «Спартака» (пятая игра), то Александра Волчкова из ЦСКА (шестая игра), то Вячеслава Анисина из «Крыльев Советов» (седьмая и восьмая игры).

... [players] were tried to play together till the SS went on.
For example: in the 1st line with Maltsev and Kharlamov played: Starshinov from Spartak (2nd game), Mikhailov (2nd game), Mishakov (7th game instead of Kharlamov). Paladyev - Lyapkin played one game (1st) together and never played together again. Paladyev (Spartak) played with Vasiliev (Dynamo) in the 4th game, Lyapkin (Spartak) played with Lutshenko (CSKA) in 5-7th games. Vasiliev played with Shatalov (3d game) form Krylya Sovetov or with Lyapkin (8th game).
In Spartak line [Yakushev - Shadrin - Zimin] they played Solodukhin (SKA Leningrad) - 3d game, Martynyuk (5th game), Volchkov (CSKA - 6th game), Anisin (Krylya Sovetov 7-8th games).
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Я поначалу был седьмым защитником. В Монреале 0:2 мы на первых минутах «горели». И Всеволод Михайлович меня сразу выпустил. Я играл с Палычем, с Рагулиным. В Монреале и в Торонто. А уже в Виннипеге — с Геной Цыганковым. И в Ванкувере тоже с ним. А в Москве я выходил с Юрой Ляпкиным, со спартаковским звеном — очень хорошо мы сыграли.

I was the 7th defenseman at first. After 0:2 in Montreal I began to play with Ragulin. In Montreal and Toronto. In Winnipeg - with Tsygankov. In Vancouver too. In Moscow I played with Lyapkin and Spartak line - we did very well.

(V. Lutchenko Наши Легенды. Суперсерия-72. Владимир Лутченко)


You don’t think the soviets meticulously scouted and game-planned for the series, while the Canadians didn’t.
В. Бобров был достойным тренером, но к тому моменту в течение пяти лет не имел какой-либо тренерской практики в хоккее (он был тренером футбольного ЦСКА . – Ф. Р. ). Вдобавок к этому Бобров не знал, да и не мог знать хоккей Канады в той мере, в какой это требовалось для победы.
Bobrov was a decent coach but up to the moment of appointment HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY COACHING PRACTICE IN HOCKEY FOR FIVE YEARS (HE COACHED FOOTBALL (soccer) TEAM). Also, Bobrov wasn't familiar (and couldn't be familiar) with Canadian hockey well enough.
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Мы-то про НХЛ немного тогда знали — в СССР про канадскую лигу особо не писали, а уж тем более по телевидению ее не показывали.
- Но слышали-то наверняка много всякого-разного-страшного...
— Ну как вам сказать... Одно знали точно: там играют очень серьезные ребята, с которыми интересно зарубиться.

За две недели до первого матча нас посадили на сборы, а Чернышов с Кулагиным поехали за океан делать экспертизу.

We knew very little about the NHL. There were almost none articles and absolutely zero TV broadcasts.
- But you have to hear a lot?
- Well, not much. We knew for sure that there some tough guys played and it would be interesting to play against them.
Two weeks before the 1st game Chernyshov and Kulagin went over the ocean to make their expert conclusion.
(A. Yakushev.
Александр Якушев: «Весь мир был уверен, что русским в Канаде делать нечего»)

Что вы вообще знали о заокеанском хоккее?
— Представление о нем было очень смутное. Во время турне по Канаде организаторы иногда приглашали нас на встречи НХЛ. Признаюсь честно, мы редко досиживали до конца игры. Матчи казались страшно затянутыми, постоянно прерывались рекламными паузами, которых в Советском Союзе не было и в помине.

What did you know about behind-the-ocean hockey at all?
Very little. During our Canadian tournaments organizers sometimes invited us to some NHL games. But we rare watched the whole games. They were too long because of commercial breaks.
(B.Mikhailov №38 (849) / Спорт / Exclusive / Канадаходцы)

Мы регулярно ездили в турне по Северной Америке. И, помню, пару игр в НХЛ посетили. Где-то на самую галерку сажали, предпоследний ряд — сложно было что-то разглядеть, такая отдаленность от площадки была.
Это сейчас информация в интернете любая есть, по телевидению каждый день показывают НХЛ, а тогда и близко похожего не было. Никто не знал — как, что, чего...

We visited NA regularly. Visited couple of the NHL games. We sat at the last rows and barely watched a thing. Today you can find any information in the Internet, the NHL is on TV regularly. Nothing like that was in our days. Nobody knew a thing.

(V.Lutchenko Наши Легенды. Суперсерия-72. Владимир Лутченко)

Когда договор на серию был подписан, вКанаду вылетели наши известные тренерыКарпов, Чернышов, Кулагин – посмотреть,как играют канадские профессионалы.

After the contract to play the SS was signed our well-know coaches: Karpov, Chernyshov, Kulagin went to Canada to watch how Canadian professionals played.

(V.Petrov «Ребята, проиграйте достойно». Владимир Петров вспоминает Суперсерию-1972)


You don’t think that the soviets went into this series knowing they’d have to be at 100% just to compete, while the Canadians thought it would be a cakewalk?

Во время турне по Канаде организаторы иногда приглашали нас на встречи НХЛ. Признаюсь честно, мы редко досиживали до конца игры. Матчи казались страшно затянутыми, постоянно прерывались рекламными паузами, которых в Советском Союзе не было и в помине. Да и сам хоккей выглядел не очень интересным, был медленным и прямолинейным. Из десятка увиденных встреч заинтриговали две-три, не больше. Тогда мы впервые увидели главных звезд НХЛ — Фила Эспозито, Бобби Халла, но и их игра совсем не завораживала.

During our Canadian tournaments organizers sometimes invited us to some NHL games. But we rare watched the whole games. They were too long because of commercial breaks.
The hockey was not very entertaining - too slow and primitive. Out of tenth games probably two or three interested me. Then we saw the main NHL stars - Phil Esposito and Bobby Hull for the first time, but we were not impressed completely.
(B.Mikhailov №38 (849) / Спорт / Exclusive / Канадаходцы)

Помните тренерскую установку Всеволода Боброва перед стартовым матчем серии в Канаде?
— «Ребята, нужно хорошо сыграть». Не было такого, как раньше, что нужно обязательно победить.
После матчей Суперсерии было ощущение, что канадские нападающие — лучшие в мире?
— Они были мощнее всех в силовой борьбе. Мне, например, как защитнику, сложнее было играть против нападающих сборной Чехословакии. Те более креативные, хитрые.

What did Bobrov said before the games?
-"Guys, lets play with class". Nobody told us that we should win.

After the SS, did you think that the Canadian forwards were the best in the world?
- They were the toughest and very strong. But as a defenseman I can say that CSSR' Fs troubled me more. CSSR were more creative, smart.

(V. Lutchenko
Владимир Лутченко: Месси играет как Валера Харламов)

- Свои ощущенияпомните?
- Дакакие там ощущения?! Все, как обычно -легкое волнение перед матчем.
- Можетбыть, некоторая расслабленность все-такибыла с нашей стороны? Для канадцев этиматчи были важнее…
- Конечно,перед нами не стояло такой дилеммы –умереть, но выиграть. А для канадцевпоражение – большой удар по престижу,имиджу лиги.
Разнос от руководителейпосле поражения? Не было ничего такого.

Do you remember your fillings?
- There were no special "fillings". Everything was as usual - I was a little nervous before the game, that's it.

Probably you were too relaxed? These games were more important for Canada...
Sure, we didn't meet such a dilemma - to win or to die. For Canadians defeat is a very bad for image, prestige.
Nobody said us a word after we lost.

(V. Petrov «Ребята, проиграйте достойно». Владимир Петров вспоминает Суперсерию-1972)

Но это чисто спортивная была история, политических мотивов вообще не наблюдалось. «Борьба идеологий», «соперничество систем» — нет-нет, ничего такого.
Тут еще вот какая штука. Канадцев, в отличие от нас, идеологически накачивали будь здоров. Фил Эспозито, с которым мы все потом здорово подружились, рассказывал: настолько сильная была у них ненависть к русским, что если бы ему сказали «Иди и убей!» — натурально убей, не в переносном смысле, — убил бы. Очень они были на нас злые.
— А вы на них?
— Ничего похожего. Абсолютно. Меня часто об этом спрашивают, и ответ всегда один, как на духу: никаких «накачек» в тот раз не было. ...Так-то дело привычное: перед чемпионатом мира или перед Олимпиадой приезжают в команду специально обученные люди — и давай качать, когда в жесткой форме, когда помягче. А перед серией 1972 года вообще ничего не было!...
И даже критики не было.

-It was sport only story, no politics at all. "System competition" - there was nothing like that. But it was in the USSR. Unlike us Canadians were motivated ideologically very strong. Phil Esposito told to me that he hated us that much that if somebody told to him "Go and kill Russians" he would have killed. They were very angry.
- And what about you?
Nothing like that. Absolutely. I am asked often and always answer: there was no any ideological motivation at all. Usually before WC or OG special people came to team and began to motivate, sometimes really hard. There was nothing like that before SS-72.
And there were no critics [after]

A.Yakushev (Александр Якушев: «Весь мир был уверен, что русским в Канаде делать нечего»)

Уже в Канаде перед стартовой игрой руководитель нашей делегации Рагульский, один из замов Сергея Павлова, устроил очередное собрание и заявил: «Ребята, вы сегодня должны достойно проиграть».

In Canada before the first game, head of our delegation on the team meeting said: "Guys, today you should lose with class"

(B. Mikhailov
http://www.itogi.ru/exclusive/2012/38/182327.html)

Никакой особой накачки перед серией не было. У меня осталось в памяти: важно хорошо сыграть, достойно.

Nobody motivated us before the SS. I remember smth like: "the main thing is to play with class"

(V.Lutchenko
http://dev.fhr.ru/news/item/28371/)

Из органов намекали, что вы обязаны выиграть?
— Нет. Самое интересное — перед чемпионатами мира и Олимпийскими играми всегда были встречи со спортивным руководством. Иногда и со Старой площади (из КГБ) люди приезжали. Была определенная «накачка». А перед этой серией — ничего. Единственное, что сказали перед отлетом: «Ребята, надо сыграть достойно»...

Did anyone from the KGB hinted that you ought to win?
No. The most interesting - before the WC and OG there always came some authority. Sometimes even from the KGB and they motivated us. Nothing before the SS. The only one thing they said before the departure: "Guys, you should play with class".

(A. Yakushev
https://spartak.ru/news/press/aleksandr-yakushev-ne-opuskat-ruki-i-bolshe-rabotat-na-trenirovkakh/)
 
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