Player Discussion Jesse Puljujarvi '18-19 Season

[guymez]

I'm sorry but I just do think you are wrong in this one, even though I know what you are talking about the emotional connection. Having the connection doesn't mean you're automatically wrong. And I do want to say that between my friends I'm always known as the person with the weakest color-glasses as we call it. When the others are raging for the referees or whatever I'm usually the spoilsport. Actually my friends have wondered how come I've been so neutral in some of the most tense games. I'm sorry but I just had to mention that, even though I don't like to talk about myself really.

I don't really have to refer to my opinion, as there's plenty of evidence saved in the net. But I feel I'm rude towards if I start digging them up, and to be honest I can use my time for other things as well. You seem like a good guy, but also a bit stubborn with your view (which is ok), so I've enjoyed the discussion. And sure it's easy to agree on the last sentence

I understand that you think I am wrong. You are entitled to think/believe what ever you like.

From my perspective you have provided assumptions based on flimsy evidence and small sample sizes through a filter of being emotionally invested.

It then becomes circular.

Perhaps thats the best we can expect in a situation like this.

So anyway I am fine moving on and hoping for success from Jesse. Its what I want ...its what both of us want.

 

[HockeyHistorian]

Actually because I dont have the emotional connection it allows me to remain objective.
I am interested in seeing a situation from a step back...not emotionally invested in the outcome.
That is the definition of objectivity. Its the opposite of where you are coming from.
Its extremely difficult to view something through an unfiltered lens if you are emotionally invested in the outcome. That is just a simple fact.
So with all due respect you have it backwards.

As for the majority of writers thinking that Jesse has been treated unfairly...this might be true of writers that are removed from the day to day realities of the team but any writer that is observing the team day to day simply dont support hat position. The only thing up for debate locally is if Jesse is being given enough PP time and that is a legit concern IMO.

Listen my friend....you are entitled to believe what you want to believe. I wish I had more time and desire to go around in circles on this but I just don't.

So lets just see if we can agree on Jesse achieving future success and seeing as we cant do anything about the past perhaps we can look forward.

Human beings cannot be objective. We are all biased in some form or another and the best thing any of us can do is try to identify and admit our biases. I think you make some good points, but I can't help but think that you seem to be misunderstanding what many of us, who may identify more as fans of Jesse, are writing.

Things aren't black and white - there's nuance to everything. It's clear, to me, that Jesse has not forced McLellan's hand and simply made himself irreplaceable, but neither has the coaching done him any favours. I think it could be that the Oilers coaching staff may have been more of an obstacle to his growth than its developer. It could also be that the Oilers have done everything they can to develop him and Jesse just doesn't do what they ask or that he is simply incapable of doing so - however, I don't think it's very likely.

 

[PulYou]

Defintions are great but you also have to use them correctly.

So please do show how am I not objective on this issue...where is the proof to back up your claim.

Sorry to mislead You. To underline what I meant: You saying that @GameChanger's argument is somehow flawed, because GameChanger is emotionally involved is a fallacious argumentative strategy - argumentum ad hominem.

 

[GameChanger]

Right now McDavid with Nuge and Rattie makes a lot of sense, but it'd be nice to see him, Nuge and Jesse together one day. I just checked from an old article that in the 4 games McDavid and Jesse played together in Jesse's first season McDavid scored 5+4. So as McDavid is an even better player now and if Jesse has developed as it looks like that could be a deadly line.

One interesting stat from Jesse's first season came across, too. At the end of November Puljujarvi's total corsi was the 5th of the team (+48), while Pitlick was -32 and Letestu -41. Somehow he was dropped down and soon benched just a game later, playing only 4 games out of 12 with an average TOI of 8 minutes in December.

 

[Aerrol]

Defintions are great but you also have to use them correctly.

It appears as if you are implying that I am not objective on this issue.

So please do show how am I not objective on this issue...where is the proof to back up your claim.

I don't think you're any more objective than anyone else posting here, tbh. You seem to have a strong bias to favour the team as I've said, or taking a step back further, to view players through a lens of 'personal responsibility' I believe you've put it.

That's all well and good but hardly any more objective than the stance that it's the organization's job to properly develop players rather than putting more of the onus on the player.

Edit: to go further, to continue to characterize people who dislike McLellan's coaching as 'emotional' is frankly a bit insulting and below the quality of posting you otherwise always provide IMO.

And for the record, I didn't even want us to draft Puljujarvi. I just see the team handling him as stupidly as they've handled many other prospects.

 

[ToeMcDrag83]

I don't know about 'evidence' but there are a couple examples and signs I see from Todd this preseason that are concerning, maybe I am reading too much into it:

- Aberg. If you look at the lines he was placed on this preseason (5th, 6th) I don't think he was ever in the picture for Todd no matter how he performed. Suggests to me Todd is still holding onto last season's gripe about missing practice. Not letting things go, not trying to blank slate the year. Earned or not, Aberg was not part of the plans, and there is no good reason.

- PP units. That 1st unit is 5 left shots. That 1st unit is the same that got us to 31st place in the NHL last year. Seemingly, there is not any sort of change to the set up or shot creation. Is there input from Manny Viveiros, hard to tell so far of course. But it looks like Todd is determined to show that last year should have worked by trying the same thing rather than being flexible and open to some changes thus far. Jesse even tried as a one timer option on PP1 isn't just a worthwhile experiment, it's an obvious one.

- Jesse. He has demonstrated some great moments this preseason, been dangerous offensively and responsible defensively. And it has earned him nothing with Todd. No PP1 time. No OT time. No shooting position on the 2nd PP. For someone who claims it has to be earned, Todd is not giving Jesse the moments he's earning even in preseason. Meanwhile, Yamamoto's preseason efforts are enough to experiment with him in OT. So why are there different carrot sticks being used here? One that keep moving away for Jesse, and one that's on the ground waiting for Yamo because congrats he's good against preseason comp?

Now it's just preseason and maybe there's more we have not seen yet. But it's little things like that which make me feel Todd holds his grudges and player opinions a little too rigidly despite any changes in front of his eyes. Call it favorites, call it bias, but what it at least looks like is selective accountability.

Pulju has steps to take certainly. I just don't think Todd is doing everything he can to help Jesse take them.

 

[The Panther]

I'm with McLellan as regards Puljujarvi. I don't think he was badly mismanaged or anything last season -- he just wasn't good enough. There were a couple of brief periods where he looked pretty good, but overall he was very inconsistent, unreliable, and defensively hopeless. He didn't deserve a lot of power-play time (not saying Lucic did, but that's another story).

It appears that he might be ready to take the great leap forward this season, and I hope he does. He's likely to be a lot better. I liked Todd's comments yesterday in Europe, where he basically said Puljujarvi has to be better this year and he needs to make his statement NOW. Indeed. But I think he will.

 

[GameChanger]

I'm with McLellan as regards Puljujarvi. I don't think he was badly mismanaged or anything last season -- he just wasn't good enough. There were a couple of brief periods where he looked pretty good, but overall he was very inconsistent, unreliable, and defensively hopeless. He didn't deserve a lot of power-play time (not saying Lucic did, but that's another story).

I think you may be reverting to the end of the season. Otherwise I unfortunately can't agree. Especially the defensive side. Now a bit going back to my old habbits of overselling stats, but at least I use these more sparingly.

At some point Pulju's esg/60 was the 8th in the NHL (at least 10 games played) and his goals/60 was about the same as Laine's and better than that of Matthews, Scheiffele, Hall, Barkov and Rantanen without any (!!!) PP time. I still don't understand how that shouldn't earn a look on the PP that was failing badly and where they tried all sorts of players. Especially when you consider Puljujarvi's history as one of the best young PP specialists before the draft.

Jesse's stats in December:

Goals/60: 1st
+-: 1st (later still in top3 as long as he played in the top6)
Combined corsi: 1st
Even strength scoring chances: 2nd
Edmonton Journal player grades: 1st (averages while Jesse had been up)

So maybe it wasn't only just a very brief period when he was doing fine and would've deserved a look on the PP and OT. If that's not enough to reward a player I'd like to know what is has to be. And what it was that made Camalleri, Aberg, Letestu, Lucic, Caggiula and some others to earn their chances repeatedly over Jesse.

 

[LTIR]

I'm with McLellan as regards Puljujarvi. I don't think he was badly mismanaged or anything last season -- he just wasn't good enough. There were a couple of brief periods where he looked pretty good, but overall he was very inconsistent, unreliable, and defensively hopeless. He didn't deserve a lot of power-play time (not saying Lucic did, but that's another story).

It appears that he might be ready to take the great leap forward this season, and I hope he does. He's likely to be a lot better. I liked Todd's comments yesterday in Europe, where he basically said Puljujarvi has to be better this year and he needs to make his statement NOW. Indeed. But I think he will.

If Todd doesn't see the improvement in Puljujarvi this preseason then I don't think he will ever see it .Pulju had a very good preseason despite not getting ideal minutes. He was much better than Draisaitl, Toby, Caggiula etc.

 

[The Batman]

I really don't get why a line of Lucic/Draisaitl/Puljujarvi wasn't tried for at least one preseason game... Although his PP usage is even more baffling.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

I'm with McLellan as regards Puljujarvi. I don't think he was badly mismanaged or anything last season -- he just wasn't good enough. There were a couple of brief periods where he looked pretty good, but overall he was very inconsistent, unreliable, and defensively hopeless. He didn't deserve a lot of power-play time (not saying Lucic did, but that's another story).

It appears that he might be ready to take the great leap forward this season, and I hope he does. He's likely to be a lot better. I liked Todd's comments yesterday in Europe, where he basically said Puljujarvi has to be better this year and he needs to make his statement NOW. Indeed. But I think he will.

And how didn't he make his statement in the preseason? I understand that he has to continue it into the regular season but the coach needs to do his part of putting him into a position to build off of his start in preseason.

 

[guymez]

Human beings cannot be objective. We are all biased in some form or another and the best thing any of us can do is try to identify and admit our biases. I think you make some good points, but I can't help but think that you seem to be misunderstanding what many of us, who may identify more as fans of Jesse, are writing.

Things aren't black and white - there's nuance to everything. It's clear, to me, that Jesse has not forced McLellan's hand and simply made himself irreplaceable, but neither has the coaching done him any favours. I think it could be that the Oilers coaching staff may have been more of an obstacle to his growth than its developer. It could also be that the Oilers have done everything they can to develop him and Jesse just doesn't do what they ask or that he is simply incapable of doing so - however, I don't think it's very likely.

Of course its a question of degrees.
Being objective is relative. When you are emotionally attached to something there is very little room for objectivity.

 

[guymez]

Sorry to mislead You. To underline what I meant: You saying that @GameChanger's argument is somehow flawed, because GameChanger is emotionally involved is a fallacious argumentative strategy - argumentum ad hominem.

His posts underscore his lack of objectivity (and emotional attachment) regarding Jesse. I simply pointed it out.

 

[guymez]

I don't think you're any more objective than anyone else posting here, tbh. You seem to have a strong bias to favour the team as I've said, or taking a step back further, to view players through a lens of 'personal responsibility' I believe you've put it.

That's all well and good but hardly any more objective than the stance that it's the organization's job to properly develop players rather than putting more of the onus on the player.

Edit: to go further, to continue to characterize people who dislike McLellan's coaching as 'emotional' is frankly a bit insulting and below the quality of posting you otherwise always provide IMO.

And for the record, I didn't even want us to draft Puljujarvi. I just see the team handling him as stupidly as they've handled many other prospects.

When I see arguments that use very small sample sizes to prove a point and also make excuses for the player then its a clear example of a poster who is emotionally attached to the player. It happens lot on here. If it isnt emotional then its a clear misunderstanding of how to properly evaluate a player.

I invite you to look at any of the old Yakupov threads...they are rife with that perspective.

Also...I never once characterized someone that doesn't like TMacs coaching as being emotionally attached to the player.
I simply used the criteria I mentioned above ...so I think you are conflating things here.

Also..yes...I will defer to the team until I see actual evidence to support that the player is being unfairly held back. There is no clear evidence of that happening to Jesse.

This argument very much mirrors the Yakupov discussions but in this case I actually think that Jesse can be a top 6 player. I never saw that in Yaks game but that didnt stop the Yak supporters from crying 'unfair coaching'.

 

[Studz]

His posts underscore his lack of objectivity (and emotional attachment) regarding Jesse. I simply pointed it out.

Your posts also underscore a lack of objectivity, because you just need to be correct and ignore some decent points made by others.

 

[guymez]

Your posts also underscore a lack of objectivity, because you just need to be correct and ignore some decent points made by others.

I dont need to be correct. Trust me...I have been wrong losts on this board...lots.

I am just confident in my opinion especially when the counter argument involves spurious information.
Nothing wrong with that.

BTW...I haven't told a single poster that they aren't entitled to believe what they believe. I am not simply going to adopt another point of view just because somebody 'feels' the way they do.
If I am to be convinced enough to change my position then the argument had better be solid and fact based. Haven't seen that yet regarding this topic.

Sorry if that upsets some people...that is not my intent.

 

[nabob]

When I see arguments that use very small sample sizes to prove a point and also make excuses for the player then its a clear example of a poster who is emotionally attached to the player. It happens lot on here. If it isnt emotional then its a clear misunderstanding of how to properly evaluate a player.

I invite you to look at any of the old Yakupov threads...they are rife with that perspective.

Also...I never once characterized someone that doesn't like TMacs coaching as being emotionally attached to the player.
I simply used the criteria I mentioned above ...so I think you are conflating things here.

Also..yes...I will defer to the team until I see actual evidence to support that the player is being unfairly held back. There is no clear evidence of that happening to Jesse.

This argument very much mirrors the Yakupov discussions but in this case I actually think that Jesse can be a top 6 player. I never saw that in Yaks game but that didnt stop the Yak supporters from crying 'unfair coaching'.

Your need to act condescending and claim that people only disagree with you and at times prove you wrong because they are overly emotional is kinda getting old. Attacking the poster rather than responding to their post isn’t a good look.

I’ve noticed that trend as you’ve been trolling almost every Puljujarvi fan by doing the same thing. Just needed to put it out there.

 

[nabob]

And how didn't he make his statement in the preseason? I understand that he has to continue it into the regular season but the coach needs to do his part of putting him into a position to build off of his start in preseason.

Yeah I don’t get how for some players the preseason is a huge measuring stick, yet for others they can play really well every single game and the treatment they get is the same as the end of the season after they struggled through the last 35 games. Not saying there’s a double standard. Just that some players are treated differently based on results from the same games. Oops maybe I am saying there’s a double standard.

 

[nabob]

I dont need to be correct. Trust me...I have been wrong losts on this board...lots.

I am just confident in my opinion especially when the counter argument involves spurious information.
Nothing wrong with that.

BTW...I haven't told a single poster that they aren't entitled to believe what they believe. I am not simply going to accept another point of view and adopt it just because somebody 'feels' the way they do.
If I am to be convinced enough to change my position then the argument had better be solid and fact based. Haven't seen that yet regarding this topic.

Sorry if that upsets some people.

Guess you can feel what you want as emotional as you want too...but don’t worry I won’t look down on you for it like you do to others here.

 

[nabob]

I really don't get why a line of Lucic/Draisaitl/Puljujarvi wasn't tried for at least one preseason game... Although his PP usage is even more baffling.

Don’t think there was anything Jesse could have done this preseason to get top 6 time or top unit PP time. It’s pretty obvious that wasn’t even going to be a consideration. Hopefully he can keep carrying the 3rd line and posters don’t immediately jump all over him when he doesn’t produce for a few games due to limited opportunity.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Don’t think there was anything Jesse could have done this preseason to get top 6 time or top unit PP time. It’s pretty obvious that wasn’t even going to be a consideration. Hopefully he can keep carrying the 3rd line and posters don’t immediately jump all over him when he doesn’t produce for a few games due to limited opportunity.

Carry the 3rd line and make the most of a bigger or different role on the PP when/if? it comes. I'm still not sold that he will be kept off the Draisaitl line all season, neither Rieder or Yamamoto have shown enough there to have sewn than spot up IMO.

 

[guymez]

Carry the 3rd line and make the most of a bigger or different role on the PP when/if? it comes. I'm still not sold that he will be kept off the Draisaitl line all season, neither Rieder or Yamamoto have shown enough there to have sewn than spot up IMO.

I agree with this.
There could well be an opportunity for Jesse this season to advance to the 2nd line.
I see it as one step at a time...continue to drive the line he is on (for at least 20 games or more) and also get some PP time.
If he excels then he could easily get to the 2nd line IF that line is struggling. If the line isnt struggling then Jesse may have to continue doing well on the 3rd line which would be fine by me.

Firstly though I would like to see him earn enough trust to see some PP time. Its entirely doable IMO.

 

[Laineux]

Carry the 3rd line and make the most of a bigger or different role on the PP when/if? it comes. I'm still not sold that he will be kept off the Draisaitl line all season, neither Rieder or Yamamoto have shown enough there to have sewn than spot up IMO.

No winger in the roster has a set spot. Puljujärvi has all the chances to make it to the 1st or 2nd line this year.

I hope that the 1st line succeeds for as long as possible, but it'd be foolish to assume that Rattie will have the spot for the whole year.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

No winger in the roster has a set spot. Puljujärvi has all the chances to make it to the 1st or 2nd line this year.

I hope that the 1st line succeeds for as long as possible, but it'd be foolish to assume that Rattie will have the spot for the whole year.

I think that RNH and Rattie are as close to written in pen as any forwards that we have. That said injuries and slumps happen so you never know when an opportunity might present itself. I would be very surprised to see Jesse with Connor and Nuge because then he might be asking for $7+ million if he has a huge year and we flat out can't afford that right now.

 

[harpoon]

I invite you to look at any of the old Yakupov threads...they are rife with that perspective

Yakupov ....
You aren’t wrong about the lack of perspective and blind homerism that filled any thread about Yakupov. Some of us picked up on Yakupov’s horrible sense of where to go on the ice very early and got crucified for it. I think Puljujari is a very different player though so I’m not sure the comparison survives a deeper look. I’ve seen Puljujarvi look tentative. I’ve seen him look confused. I’ve even seen him look like what I felt was lazy. I’ve not seen him consistently and repeatedly be out of position and/or have no idea what to do with the puck when it came to him. I think Puljujarvi is going to be a damn fine player in this league. Like you, I look forward to watching his progress this season.