Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Staaled Out Edition

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blarneylad

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Feb 1, 2009
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I'm pretty much convinced they sign Danault to a nutso contract and trade KK now. I'm pretty resigned to it

It sucks but its gonna happen.
What does that do for this team winning? Habs will never win with Danault in the top 6. This might literally be my last year following this team. Over 20 years and Bergevin has completely ruined hockey for me
 

Habby4Life

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Nov 12, 2008
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That's your quote:


If KK even remotely played well he would not have been shuffled around the lineup and they might not have limped into the PO.

So yes. you did infer it.


HAHA I said it! I thought my post made it pretty clear.
 

Mrb1p

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What does that do for this team winning? Habs will never win with Danault in the top 6. This might literally be my last year following this team. Over 20 years and Bergevin has completely ruined hockey for me
Tune in tonight for the caps vs boston game, thats hockey. Hockeys still awesome. Its the Habs fandom that was ruined by Bergevin and his sycophants.
 

Whitesnake

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I wasn't quoting you because I was disagreeing with your assessment; I was simply attempting to add to it...I do, however, disagree that Hughes would have been the right pick...he does nothing to impress me, even now...his offensive instincts and talent is phenomenal, but outside of the O-zone, he's an absolute train wreck and may just be the softest player I've ever seen play in the NHL; Christ, guys like Mete look like Chris Pronger compared to how Stay Puft soft Hughes is...even his decision-making makes me nervous when he's on the ice; it's like he only sees the game from the opponent's blue line in and the other 2/3rds of the ice don't exist...anyways, just wanted to clarify that I agree with the post I originally quoted from you and just added my own take to it...:thumbu:

My take about Hughes isn't who I think is the best right now...but who, based on BPA, should have probably be the pick at 3 if you only based yourself on the natural qualities and on the fact that this is the type of hockey that is being played and if you wanted to have the chance to get your own Cale Makar. Again, based to the elements you had AT THE TIME of the draft. Having said that right now...if everybody is young and we shouldn't come to any rapid conclusion....I guess we should do that for Hughes too no?
 

BigDaddyLurch

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My take about Hughes isn't who I think is the best right now...but who, based on BPA, should have probably be the pick at 3 if you only based yourself on the natural qualities and on the fact that this is the type of hockey that is being played and if you wanted to have the chance to get your own Cale Makar. Again, based to the elements you had AT THE TIME of the draft. Having said that right now...if everybody is young and we shouldn't come to any rapid conclusion....I guess we should do that for Hughes too no?

I'm not saying that Hughes will only ever be a Marc-Andre Bergeron; I'm just posting what I see in his game so far and what I see is a player who doesn't even attempt to play better defensively or has made any attempt in his short career to shore up the rest of his game outside the Offensive Zone...Cale Makar has already, in his short career in the Big's, shown growth in every aspect of his already fantastic game and I haven't seen that in Hughes at all; in fact, in my opinion, his play this year, even with his great offensive start to the season, was a disappointment compared to his play last year in the Bubble, which again was fantastic in the O-zone but actually hurt his team quite often outside of it...things like IQ and on-ice vision outside of the offensive zone are where I see big deficiencies in Hughes game, not to mention the kid is tiny and gets tossed around by a mild fart, severely limiting his ability to transition the puck out of the D-zone because he's just not able to outmuscle anyone to get it...I was never big on Hughes because I didn't think his game would translate as well to the NHL as someone like Kotkaniemi or Tkachuk and I honestly still think he's too tiny, not just small but tiny, to be anything more than a highly-skilled Mete-type who you have to shelter a lot in order for them to be completely effective over the long haul...hope the kid proves me wrong but that's what I see in his game so far; offensive brilliance but detrimental everywhere else on the ice...
 

MarkovsKnee

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Last 15 games he notched 1 point and was a -8. I guess it all depends on your definition of "actively hurting them"

Everyone had terrible minuses over the last 15 games. How many freaking games did we lose? Losing a lot usually brings minuses.

None of our forwards are helped by our hapless D. The D should be starting the transition, instead the forwards have to do it unless Petry is on the ice.

The goaltending has been awful too. Allen seems to get a free pass and he shouldn't.

Despite all that, despite being -8, he only ended the season at -1 over 56 games, which means he was a plus player for the vast majority of the season.

Meanwhile, Staal finished the season with Montreal at -10 in only 21 games.

Anderson finished -10.

If you're going by +/- then both Andy & Staal should be out. KK & Caufield in.

Oh, and Chiarot finished -16, and Merrill -11 in only 13 f***ing games.
 

Habano

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I'm pretty much convinced they sign Danault to a nutso contract and trade KK now. I'm pretty resigned to it

It sucks but its gonna happen.
If that happens, it will be the straw that breaks this camel's back. I've sat back and supported and argued for this organization as I watched my friends drop them like a hot potato.

I've blindly accepted all trades and decisions because well, there's SFA I could do about it.

There is no way I can cheer for another team but I can, and will, stop supporting this joke of an organization.
 
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Doc McKenna

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Since 15'-16'.... And he ain't getting younger.

I really don't get the respect the org. has for Staal.
I do, its when the canes burned us in 2006, you know 15 years ago with a 22 yea old staal that had come back after an entire year in the minors to record a 100 point season and 28 points in 25 PO games. He did have some good numbers lastyear, so there is hope.

Maybe the plan is to show KK that when they send him back to the AHL next season it was for his own good, like Eryuck Staaled. See I knew there was a reason we traded for him. At 20 years old Staal had 31 points in 81 games...You know thats why KK is a bust at 20 with 20 points in 56. :sarcasm:
 
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Runner77

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I do, its when the canes burned us in 2006, you know 15 years ago with a 22 yea old staal that had come back after an entire year in the minors to record a 100 point season and 28 points in 25 PO games. He did have some good numbers lastyear, so there is hope.

Maybe the plan is to show KK that when they send him back to the AHL next season it was for his own good, like Eryuck Staaled. See I knew there was a reason we traded for him. At 20 years old Staal had 31 points in 81 games...You know thats why KK is a bust at 20 with 20 points in 56. :sarcasm:

Unfortunately Doc, they can no longer send KK to the AHL anymore without exposing him to waivers, unless it’s for a conditioning stint. This org. just never learns.
 

Lafleurs Guy

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Everyone had terrible minuses over the last 15 games. How many freaking games did we lose? Losing a lot usually brings minuses.

None of our forwards are helped by our hapless D. The D should be starting the transition, instead the forwards have to do it unless Petry is on the ice.

The goaltending has been awful too. Allen seems to get a free pass and he shouldn't.

Despite all that, despite being -8, he only ended the season at -1 over 56 games, which means he was a plus player for the vast majority of the season.

Meanwhile, Staal finished the season with Montreal at -10 in only 21 games.

Anderson finished -10.

If you're going by +/- then both Andy & Staal should be out. KK & Caufield in.

Oh, and Chiarot finished -16, and Merrill -11 in only 13 f***ing games.
Can't believe people still bring up +/-

Look at Alex Ovechkin's 2014 and 2015 seasons. They are almost identical. Possession wise he's better in 2015 but his numbers aren't terrible the year before.

In 2014 he's a -35. In 2015 he's +10.

The team had a far worse differential from one season to the next. That's it. It had little to do with the player.
 

Habs Icing

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Can't believe people still bring up +/-

Look at Alex Ovechkin's 2014 and 2015 seasons. They are almost identical. Possession wise he's better in 2015 but his numbers aren't terrible the year before.

In 2014 he's a -35. In 2015 he's +10.

The team had a far worse differential from one season to the next. That's it. It had little to do with the player.
You want some advanced analytics

2020-21 Montreal Canadiens Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

Go to the Scoring regular season chart
look for OPS (offensive point share)
he is 15th with a .3
on the DPS (defensive point share)
he is 11th with a .9

Go to the advanced stats chart
His CF% - 10th - 55.5
CF% rel - 10th - 1.6

FF% - 1oth - 53.5
FF% rel -11th - .3

OISH% (team on ice shooting %)- 17th - 7.3
OISV% (team on ice save %) - 9th - 91.6

attempted shots that get thru to net : 11th - 55.1%

even strength GF/60 - 17th - 2.1
even strength GA/60 - 7th - 2.0

PP CF%rel - 12th - 1.8
PP GF/60 - 14th - 4
PP GA/60 - 23rd - .6

Not exactly stats he should write home about
 

Doc McKenna

A new era 2021
Jan 5, 2009
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Everyone had terrible minuses over the last 15 games. How many freaking games did we lose? Losing a lot usually brings minuses.

None of our forwards are helped by our hapless D. The D should be starting the transition, instead the forwards have to do it unless Petry is on the ice.

The goaltending has been awful too. Allen seems to get a free pass and he shouldn't.

Despite all that, despite being -8, he only ended the season at -1 over 56 games, which means he was a plus player for the vast majority of the season.

Meanwhile, Staal finished the season with Montreal at -10 in only 21 games.

Anderson finished -10.

If you're going by +/- then both Andy & Staal should be out. KK & Caufield in.

Oh, and Chiarot finished -16, and Merrill -11 in only 13 f***ing games.
And we had to get this D specialist and waive Mete, because ...umm. Vet?
 
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Lafleurs Guy

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Jul 20, 2007
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You want some advanced analytics

2020-21 Montreal Canadiens Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

Go to the Scoring regular season chart
look for OPS (offensive point share)
he is 15th with a .3
on the DPS (defensive point share)
he is 11th with a .9

Go to the advanced stats chart
His CF% - 10th - 55.5
CF% rel - 10th - 1.6

FF% - 1oth - 53.5
FF% rel -11th - .3

OISH% (team on ice shooting %)- 17th - 7.3
OISV% (team on ice save %) - 9th - 91.6

attempted shots that get thru to net : 11th - 55.1%

even strength GF/60 - 17th - 2.1
even strength GA/60 - 7th - 2.0

PP CF%rel - 12th - 1.8
PP GF/60 - 14th - 4
PP GA/60 - 23rd - .6

Not exactly stats he should write home about
Nothing wrong with 1.6. Being above zero on those relative numbers means that he's driving the play positively vs his teammates. 1.6 isn't bad at all. Esp when you're 20 and people here are saying sucks ass. And this is after a terrible slump where he's played relatively poorly. Those numbers have taken a beating lately and he's still well into positive territory.

Now do the same thing with Staal. CF rel is -2.6. And again, this is relative to his teammates. It's a huge spread between those two players. It's insane to play Staal over this guy.

The PP numbers are meaningless too.

Part of me wonders if Kotkaniemi will be exposed in the expansion draft.
They aren't THAT stupid.

I'm pretty much convinced they sign Danault to a nutso contract and trade KK now. I'm pretty resigned to it

It sucks but its gonna happen.
If KK does get moved (and who knows what happens there) it will be interesting to see what happens with him. Does he become Lars Eller (his absolute floor) or does he become another John Leclair like fiasco? I think any time who picks him up and plays him with some talented wingers will be handsomely rewarded.

What I don't want to see is him squandered for the next few years here. Play him or trade him. Enough with the yo-yo'ing nonsense.
 
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MarkovsKnee

Global Moderator
Nov 21, 2007
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You want some advanced analytics

2020-21 Montreal Canadiens Roster and Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com

Go to the Scoring regular season chart
look for OPS (offensive point share)
he is 15th with a .3
on the DPS (defensive point share)
he is 11th with a .9

Go to the advanced stats chart
His CF% - 10th - 55.5
CF% rel - 10th - 1.6

FF% - 1oth - 53.5
FF% rel -11th - .3

OISH% (team on ice shooting %)- 17th - 7.3
OISV% (team on ice save %) - 9th - 91.6

attempted shots that get thru to net : 11th - 55.1%

even strength GF/60 - 17th - 2.1
even strength GA/60 - 7th - 2.0

PP CF%rel - 12th - 1.8
PP GF/60 - 14th - 4
PP GA/60 - 23rd - .6

Not exactly stats he should write home about

Now look at Staal's.
 
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Habs Icing

Formerly Onice
Jan 17, 2004
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Nothing wrong with 1.6. Being above zero on those relative numbers means that he's driving the play positively vs his teammates. 1.6 isn't bad at all. Esp when you're 20 and people here are saying sucks ass. And this is after a terrible slump where he's played relatively poorly. Those numbers have taken a beating lately and he's still well into positive territory.

Now do the same thing with Staal. CF rel is -2.6. And again, this is relative to his teammates. It's a huge spread between those two players. It's insane to play Staal over this guy.
No one is expecting Staal to be our #2 C today or in the future. And how about we bitch and moan about DD's playoff lineup once it's released. Right now we got posters claiming KK is on his way out either through trade or the expansion draft. Let's wait and see what DD does for the whole run of the playoffs.

Staal was horrid when he first came here but in the last couple of games he was better than KK. Is that enough for me to write Staal into the lineup and write out KK. I don't know. I'd have to watch the practices. DD's job is to win and right now I don't think either player can help the Habs win the series.
 
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