Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi- So You See That's Where The Trouble Began,That Smile,That Damned Smile Edition

[Habs Halifax]

He has flashes of extremeley high end skill. Let him build some lower body strength and give him a summer to put meat on his bones and he will be a force as early as next year. He is already a great forchecker and can win board battles despite his size—mostly due to his smarts and positioning

His smarts and vision for a 18 year old is elite level. Skating can be better but he can improve his edge work if he got stronger.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

he hasn't shown anything at all, nothing even close to what your trying to claim,
all your going by is his draft position, yakupov says hello

This is just a bad post and shows how little you know about the national hockey league and 18 year old prospects lol.

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

2 way 60+ point centers grow on trees didint you guys know ? If your 18 year old top draft pick is not putting up 70+ points in his draft year he’s a bust and hasn’t shown anything duuuuh

 

[Andrei79]

Uhhhh, those who are saying he will only be a number 2 (one person even said Number 3) at best center are judging this based of his first 28 games, at the hardest position and as the youngest player in the NHL.? Wow....99.9% of the drafted players his age are still in Juniors. The fact that he's even able to play in the NHL (and contributing) at his age is frankly shocking, especially considering where he was in his development 6-8 months ago. I think it's normal for a player that age to have weaknesses (especially physcially) and to have rough patches during the season. Hell, even the mighty Elias Pettersson only has 3 goals, 3 assists in his last 13 games. It's a grinding schedule that wears down on you.

I still think Kotkaniemi can be a 70-80 point, number one center for this team. Will he do it this year, obviously not..but give him some time to grow into his body and develop his skills. The best is yet to come.

Jordan Staal was better and even younger when he played his rookie season. He ended up never putting up more than 50 points even in a top 6 role in Carolina.

Personally, I've seen one poster say he's a third line C (which to me seems ridiculous to say with what we've seen) and Habs Icing suggesting his potential is that of a 60 point center.

I don't see what's wrong with that... is it insulting to think he could be a consistent top 50 scorer ? Is Habs Icing saying his opinion on the subject is definitive ? I think it's perfectly normal that some hockeysfuture posters give their opinion on what they think a players upside is, it's kind of the point of the boards.

 

[admiralcadillac]

2 way 60+ point centers grow on trees didint you guys know ? If your 18 year old top draft pick is not putting up 70+ points in his draft year he’s a bust and hasn’t shown anything duuuuh

Duh of course everyone knows that.

I mean look at a guy like Thornton, such a bust

 

[FrankMTL]

Jordan Staal was better and even younger when he played his rookie season. He ended up never putting up more than 50 points even in a top 6 role in Carolina.

Personally, I've seen one poster say he's a third line C (which to me seems ridiculous to say with what we've seen) and Habs Icing suggesting his potential is that of a 60 point center.

I don't see what's wrong with that... is it insulting to think he could be a consistent top 50 scorer ? Is Habs Icing saying his opinion on the subject is definitive ? I think it's perfectly normal that some hockeysfuture posters give their opinion on what they think a players upside is, it's kind of the point of the boards.

Jordan Staal was already physically mature at Kotkaniemi's age. He also does not have the Hockey IQ and Vision that Kotkaniemi has. Not a good comparison in my opinion.

Also, it's not insulting to think that he can become "only" a number two center. I just find it early to judge especially considering how quickly he's progressed recently. He looks tired in my opinion. They should probably give him a game off from time to time as hes doesn't seem have the same bubbly smile as much as before.

 

[Mrb1p]

Way more ?

He's shown way more skills than a guy like Ryan Johansen for example ? Or Jeff Carter ? That's what 6'3" 60-70 point centers are. I'd be thrilled with that. There's nothing "regular" about consistently scoring 60 points. That puts you in the top 50 scorers pretty much every year.

Kotkaniemi has a similar toolbox to Johansen, but Johansen has trouble between the hears, from not shooting enough, to being a fat POG. I see none of that with Kotkaniemi.

 

[Mrb1p]

he hasn't shown anything at all, nothing even close to what your trying to claim,
all your going by is his draft position, yakupov says hello

Cool, lets call him Yakupov 2.0,

 

[Andrei79]

Jordan Staal was already physically mature at Kotkaniemi's age. He also does not have the Hockey IQ and Vision that Kotkaniemi has. Not a good comparison in my opinion.

Also, it's not insulting to think that he can become "only" a number two center. I just find it early to judge especially considering how quickly he's progressed recently.

The point here was simply to say that despite Kotkaniemi's very good play for his age, there's no guarantee his ceiling might not be reached sooner than we hope. With what we've seen, I'm not sure there's enough to be confident in one direction (top 6 C around 60-70 points) or the other (eventual top 20 scorer).

 

[Mrb1p]

Jordan Staal was already physically mature at Kotkaniemi's age. He also does not have the Hockey IQ and Vision that Kotkaniemi has. Not a good comparison in my opinion.

Also, it's not insulting to think that he can become "only" a number two center. I just find it early to judge especially considering how quickly he's progressed recently. He looks tired in my opinion. They should probably give him a game off from time to time as hes doesn't seem have the same bubbly smile as much as before.

Or the shot, or the hands, or the passing ability.

Staal was barely a PPG on a 50 win squad.

 

[Andrei79]

Or the shot, or the hands, or the passing ability.

Staal was barely a PPG on a 50 win squad.

And if Kotkaniemi doesn't reach higher levels than Staal, you'll see posters point out that plenty saw him as not having the skills needed to be picked top 3.

That's the gift of hindsight, because I do remember Jordan Staals rookie season and he was impressive. Brock said as much the year before: don't underrate him as his skillset isn't that far off his older brothers. And he came in scored 29 goals in all kinds of ways (what Kotkaniemi isnt doing) while playing an all around game much further along kids his age usually show. But hey, he only had 29 goals and 42 points as one of the youngest rookies ever. Everyone expected him to top off there

 

[Habs Icing]

60-70 points two way center is what I projected he could be before the draft. Thats an asset thats very tough to acquire by other means than the draft. Not sure he can be a no.1 on a cup winner, but you never know how these guys developp, he's been on a steep development curve over the last year.

I never saw him before the draft but having seen him now my evaluation matches yours. I'm not saying he's a bust, god knows we've needed legit top line centers even when Koivu was here. He has great skills but he also has huge holes in his game. But I'll be ecstatic if he proves me wrong and turns out to be a #1 center who produces 70-80 points a year.

 

[Mrb1p]

And if Kotkaniemi doesn't reach higher levels than Staal, you'll see posters point out that plenty saw him as not having the skills needed to be picked top 3.

That's the gift of hindsight, because I do remember Jordan Staals rookie season and he was impressive. Brock said as much the year before: don't underrate him as his skillset isn't that far off his older brothers. And he came in scored 29 goals in all kinds of ways (what Kotkaniemi isnt doing) while playing an all around game much further along kids his age usually show. But hey, he only had 29 goals and 42 points as one of the youngest rookies ever. Everyone expected him to top off there

Damn, he scored 29 goals ? Thats his best season both in goals and in shooting percentage.

Yep, 11% over his career average in shooting %. 6% over his next best season, which already stands out compared to the rest of his career.

 

[The Great Weal]

I still think he should use a shorter stick. Sure he wont habs as many takeaways, but he hasnt been able to get his shot off enough.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I still think he should use a shorter stick. Sure he wont habs as many takeaways, but he hasnt been able to get his shot off enough.

He might have a hard time adjusting to a shorter stick in terms of his shot. If he's been playing with a long stick for a while, I think he should tinker with a slightly smaller length stick and feel it out. Make the change gradually. I know when I played hockey, I had a few sticks at a certain length and a few more longer. Just depended on what kind of game I wanted to play from day to day or shift to shift

 

[Habs Icing]

Do you deny that Galchenyuk had the skillset to be a first line center ? Because that is what youre doing with Koktaniemi.

For Chrissakes are you guys such wall flowers. I responded to a poster who asked an opinion about Koko Puffs ceiling. I told him what I thought and I repeated it to you and I added I hope I'm wrong. Now, you freaking want to debate me on my opinion.

Yes to your question and not only did Galchenyuk lack the skills to be a #1, he lacked the skills to be a center at all. Just like Drouin. The Coyotes have moved Chucky to the wing if you didn't know.

Now, I'm not saying Koko Puffs doesn't have the skills to be a center. He has in spades what Chucky lacked: defensive awareness. But I don't think he's a #1 center. I see lots of holes in his game and I'm not pleased that the Habs are keeping him in the NHL. I would have sent him to the AHL or back home to Finland to work on his deficiencies. Exactly what they did with Mete - a year late.

I'm sorry my opinion about this kid has offended your sensibilities. I'll remember to lie next time so we have an even keel consensus at all times on this board.

 

[Andrei79]

Damn, he scored 29 goals ? Thats his best season both in goals and in shooting percentage.

Yep, 11% over his career average in shooting %. 6% over his next best season, which already stands out compared to the rest of his career.

Great point, his career % and goal scoring peaks were already known after his rookie season. Expecting him to continue improving his offense after that season would have been ridiculous

 

[Kaako Kappo]

Anyone who's watched him play knows he cannot be ruined.

 

[Le compétiteur]

For Chrissakes are you guys such wall flowers. I responded to a poster who asked an opinion about Koko Puffs ceiling. I told him what I thought and I repeated it to you and I added I hope I'm wrong. Now, you freaking want to debate me on my opinion.

Yes to your question and not only did Galchenyuk lack the skills to be a #1, he lacked the skills to be a center at all. Just like Drouin. The Coyotes have moved Chucky to the wing if you didn't know.

Now, I'm not saying Koko Puffs doesn't have the skills to be a center. He has in spades what Chucky lacked: defensive awareness. But I don't think he's a #1 center. I see lots of holes in his game and I'm not pleased that the Habs are keeping him in the NHL. I would have sent him to the AHL or back home to Finland to work on his deficiencies. Exactly what they did with Mete - a year late.

I'm sorry my opinion about this kid has offended your sensibilities. I'll remember to lie next time so we have an even keel consensus at all times on this board.

AHL? Impossible, there is a clause in KK's contract that say for season 2018-2019 and season 2019-2020 it's NHL or Liiga.

Liiga? His team is dead last, 8 win in 27 games... his team is even saying that sending him to Finland would be the worst thing to do, he has nothing to learn in Finland this year except how to deal with losing everynight...

He's in Montréal for good that you like it or not.

 

[Habs Icing]

LOL, Galchenyuk had no IQ and no 100 feet game

Why are you telling me this? You should go tell Mrb1p

 

[Mrb1p]

For Chrissakes are you guys such wall flowers. I responded to a poster who asked an opinion about Koko Puffs ceiling. I told him what I thought and I repeated it to you and I added I hope I'm wrong. Now, you freaking want to debate me on my opinion.

Yes to your question and not only did Galchenyuk lack the skills to be a #1, he lacked the skills to be a center at all. Just like Drouin. The Coyotes have moved Chucky to the wing if you didn't know.

Now, I'm not saying Koko Puffs doesn't have the skills to be a center. He has in spades what Chucky lacked: defensive awareness. But I don't think he's a #1 center. I see lots of holes in his game and I'm not pleased that the Habs are keeping him in the NHL. I would have sent him to the AHL or back home to Finland to work on his deficiencies. Exactly what they did with Mete - a year late.

I'm sorry my opinion about this kid has offended your sensibilities. I'll remember to lie next time so we have an even keel consensus at all times on this board.

Well yeah... Your opinion was wrong, so I'm trying to discuss it.

Regardless, I think you're looking into it further than I thought.

Evaluate Galchenyuks tangible skills, then tell me he doesn't have the ceiling to be a 1C. I don't think anyone can, leave the fact that he is not one at the moment out of your judgment. Just see it at face-value, on the 19th of January of 2013.

Did he have the shot to be a 1C?
Did he have the hands to be a 1C ?
Did he have the passing to be a 1C?
Did he have the size to be a 1C ?
Did he have the skating to be a 1C?
Did he have the creativity to be a 1C?


If you have all of that, you just have to put it together.
A shot and positioning will get you a certain number of goals
Offensive creativity, understanding of offensive and defensive scheme, cunning, hands, pass accuracy, puck protection, skating, will get you a certain number of passes.

When you have those skills, no matter what goes wrong, no matter where you are at 18 years old or at 25, you have/had 1C potential.

When I evaluate player I always check two things, what is his goal ceiling and what is his passes ceiling. It usually determines what kind of player youre getting.

With that said, what is Kotkaniemi's goal ceiling ? With the snap shot he has, the one-timer he possess and the quick wrister he has(if he ever finds his timing.), I can see him become a 30 goal scorer, maybe 35, I've seen worst shooters produce more. Notably Pacioretty, who relied on two elite tools to score 35+ every year. (Skating and release.)

For him to be a 60 points forward, he'd have to be incredibly average at what he is best at, playmaking. I just don't see it. Even if he never gets to 30 goals, he should be a consistent 40+ assists player.

 

[Mrb1p]

Great point, his career % and goal scoring peaks were already known after his rookie season. Expecting him to continue improving his offense after that season would have been ridiculous

Improving on 20%+ goalscoring is a ridiculous idea, yeah. Regression was inevitable.

 

[Habs Icing]

Did he have the shot to be a 1C?On occasion
Did he have the hands to be a 1C ? On ocassion
Did he have the passing to be a 1C? Not really
Did he have the size to be a 1C ?Yes
Did he have the skating to be a 1C? Not really
Did he have the creativity to be a 1C?Nope

You conveniently forgot other skills required to be a #1 such as Hockey IQ, defensive awareness etc.

 

[Sorinth]

With that said, what is Kotkaniemi's goal ceiling ? With the snap shot he has, the one-timer he possess and the quick wrister he has(if he ever finds his timing.), I can see him become a 30 goal scorer, maybe 35, I've seen worst shooters produce more. Notably Pacioretty, who relied on two elite tools to score 35+ every year. (Skating and release.)

At his current shots per game rate he would need a 20.8% shooting percentage to hit 30 goals. He's currently at 6.1%.

30 goals is out of reach unless he drastically improves the number of shots he takes, which to me seems unlikely as he seems to be a pass first kind of guy. He'll improve both in number of shots and shooting percentage but 20-25 goals seem like a more reasonable level.

And it's very bizarre that you consider Pacioretty a bad shooter.

 

[Mrb1p]

You conveniently forgot other skills required to be a #1 such as Hockey IQ, defensive awareness etc.

Offensive production is the only thing that differenciates elite from average players.