Injury Report: Jesperi Kotkaniemi (Part IX)

[Kriss E]

I just think it was a convenient excuse to lower the responsibilities of a young player when the games became more meaningful.

it's coach-speak for "I didn't trust him because he's young, i'd rather trust veterans who tire at the same rate".

Well you can choose to believe that, but you cannot deny how fatigue may also actually be a factor.
From what I saw, he was looked sloppier out there and Julien is not the one who made me see this.

I know they don't...but we're just using comparables, which is each player's respective rookie seasons.

You had mentioned earlier that you'd have been more impressed by Kotkaniemi's rookie season had he produced 60pts like Kopitar did in his rookie season.

But I don't think you took context into account here...because using context, Kotkaniemi's rookie season was on par with Kopitar's.

Not at all. I put KK's rookie year more in line with Galch's especially considering his return from a year off. Kopitar was a beast, KK is not comparable to him because he played less and had crappier wingers at 18. Come on now.

Disagree about his offensive game being mature enough, but again, it's all relative...he was a very young 18yr old. No one was expecting a finished product here, but I think we saw a lot of things that most 18yr olds just don't do at the NHL level.

Sure. But his offensive game needs quite a bit of growing if he is to be a top line center.

Not at all...I said a few times, I don't think you're being unreasonable.

But I do think you should be way more excited or assured based on what we saw last year.

This team has a lot of question marks moving forward...

Kotkaniemi's potential as a 1st liner, shouldn't be one of them, at least not IMO.

It is a question mark whether you want to admit it or not. KK is not a shoe in to be a top center. Not to me. He needs to develop his offensive game more for that to happen.

 

[417]

Well you can choose to believe that, but you cannot deny how fatigue may also actually be a factor.
From what I saw, he was looked sloppier out there and Julien is not the one who made me see this.

I certainly don't deny it...I just think it's a factor for everyone. So to me, that nullifies it in a way.

Kotkaniemi wasn't the only player who looked sloppy out there.

Not at all. I put KK's rookie year more in line with Galch's especially considering his return from a year off. Kopitar was a beast, KK is not comparable to him because he played less and had crappier wingers at 18. Come on now.

Once more...I did not come up with the initial comparison, that was you lol

And nowhere did I say that Kotkaniemi = Kopitar.

I said using YOUR comparison...their rookie seasons, with applied context, were a lot closer to each other from a statistical point of view, then you're portraying.

Sure. But his offensive game needs quite a bit of growing if he is to be a top line center.

Yes, but that's normal.

It is a question mark whether you want to admit it or not. KK is not a shoe in to be a top center. Not to me. He needs to develop his offensive game more for that to happen.

And there's nothing i've seen that indicates that shouldn't happen.

Of course...anything CAN happen...maybe he starts getting more of a liking for hanging out at New City Gas, then working on his game.

I can't predict that.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

What was the issue with his offensive game?

Was it the dozen or so assists that went to waste because he didn't have linemates to bury his passes that's bothering you?

No, its the fact he doesn't seem to have elite tools there. Release is slow, bobbles the puck time after time. He's got good instincts, especially defensively, but he doesn't have that wow factor on offense. Doesn't have game-breaking talent there IMO, his shot is above average and his IQ is above average too, but I think he needs a lot of work there.

Me not agreeing with you doesn't warrant the kind of snarky replies about his dozen or so wasted assists, as if he's the only player in the game whose linemates get stopped or miss the net off of nice passes. I think he's a top 2 center in the making for sure, I'm skeptical about him being a number 1. If he does become a number 1, I think it'll be a 1a, 1b type, but this is only speculation on my part based on the games I've seen to date. No different than yours.

If you want to continue down this "I'm more right than you path" go right ahead, and if you think he's a shoe-in that's your opinion, I don't agree with it and you posting all these reasons why he didn't do better is not changing my mind. I watched the kid as much as most here and I feel like he has alot of work to do on his offensive game.

 

[417]

No, its the fact he doesn't seem to have elite tools there. Release is slow, bobbles the puck time after time. He's got good instincts, especially defensively, but he doesn't have that wow factor on offense. Doesn't have game-breaking talent there IMO, his shot is above average and his IQ is above average too, but I think he needs a lot of work there.

He just turned 19

Me not agreeing with you doesn't warrant the kind of snarky replies about his dozen or so wasted assists, as if he's the only player in the game whose linemates get stopped or miss the net off of nice passes. I think he's a top 2 center in the making for sure, I'm skeptical about him being a number 1. If he does become a number 1, I think it'll be a 1a, 1b type, but this is only speculation on my part based on the games I've seen to date. No different than yours.

I wasn't being snarky...i'm sorry it appeared that way.

If you want to continue down this "I'm more right than you path" go right ahead, and if you think he's a shoe-in that's your opinion, I don't agree with it and you posting all these reasons why he didn't do better is not changing my mind. I watched the kid as much as most here and I feel like he has alot of work to do on his offensive game.

I never said i'm more right than you or even said he's a shoe-in...and i've repeated this several times.

I just said that I don't understand how anyone who watched him play last year can come away with the impression he might not have #1C upside.

Again, if this was the exact same player on another team, we'd be fawning over him and saying how lucky team X is for having future-no-doubt-about it #1C Jesperi Kotkaniemi.

But because he's a Hab and everything Habs-related isn't as good as it ever is...we question whether he's a #1a or #1b or #2C...or whatever.

If you have doubts...it's well within your right, I was just hoping to gain an understanding as to why.

I don't agree with a lot of your assessment about him but that's certainly your prerogative.

 

[SpeedyPotato]

No, its the fact he doesn't seem to have elite tools there. Release is slow, bobbles the puck time after time. He's got good instincts, especially defensively, but he doesn't have that wow factor on offense. Doesn't have game-breaking talent there IMO, his shot is above average and his IQ is above average too, but I think he needs a lot of work there.

Me not agreeing with you doesn't warrant the kind of snarky replies about his dozen or so wasted assists, as if he's the only player in the game whose linemates get stopped or miss the net off of nice passes. I think he's a top 2 center in the making for sure, I'm skeptical about him being a number 1. If he does become a number 1, I think it'll be a 1a, 1b type, but this is only speculation on my part based on the games I've seen to date. No different than yours.

If you want to continue down this "I'm more right than you path" go right ahead, and if you think he's a shoe-in that's your opinion, I don't agree with it and you posting all these reasons why he didn't do better is not changing my mind. I watched the kid as much as most here and I feel like he has alot of work to do on his offensive game.

I think he absolutely has elite tools, I don't agree with you at all. His shooting might be a tad slow at times but it's heavy and he has a great one timer. His passing is just incredible, so is his IQ. The only thing that's not above average (except for his strength which is normal for an 18 year old) is his skating, which is actually better than first advertised, although he won't ever be a burner. Let's agree to disagree on that, but I'm pretty convinced that you'll be proven wrong within a few years.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

He just turned 19

I'm aware. Age doesn't wipe away all the things he needs to improve.

I wasn't being snarky...i'm sorry it appeared that way.

Certainly felt that way, or I fail to see what point you were trying to make here. Are you suggesting he has nothing to improve and all his shortcomings are that of his linemates. I don't see an offensive juggernaut here, how about you tell me about his elite offensive tools then and we can debate those?

I never said i'm more right than you or even said he's a shoe-in...and i've repeated this several times.

I just said that I don't understand how anyone who watched him play last year can come away with the impression he might not have #1C upside.

Im not saying he can't be a number 1, I'm just saying I don't see that elite toolkit on the offensive side of the puck, this could limit his ceiling. The rest of his game is already close.

Again, if this was the exact same player on another team, we'd be fawning over him and saying how lucky team X is for having future-no-doubt-about it #1C Jesperi Kotkaniemi.

But because he's a Hab and everything Habs-related isn't as good as it ever is...we question whether he's a #1a or #1b or #2C...or whatever.

If you have doubts...it's well within your right, I was just hoping to gain an understanding as to why.

I don't agree with a lot of your assessment about him but that's certainly your prerogative.

I don't agree with this. The habs board/fan base is huge and has wide variety of opinions, lumping everyone in together just isn't fair. I'm critical of other players faults on other teams and I'm high on guys within our own system. This has nothing to do with my evaluation of kotkaniemi.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I think he absolutely has elite tools, I don't agree with you at all. His shooting might be a tad slow at times but it's heavy and he has a great one timer. His passing is just incredible, so is his IQ. The only thing that's not above average (except for his strength which is normal for an 18 year old) is his skating, which is actually better than first advertised, although he won't ever be a burner. Let's agree to disagree on that, but I'm pretty convinced that you'll be proven wrong within a few years.

Let's hope you're right.

 

[417]

I think he absolutely has elite tools, I don't agree with you at all. His shooting might be a tad slow at times but it's heavy and he has a great one timer. His passing is just incredible, so is his IQ. The only thing that's not above average (except for his strength which is normal for an 18 year old) is his skating, which is actually better than first advertised, although he won't ever be a burner. Let's agree to disagree on that, but I'm pretty convinced that you'll be proven wrong within a few years.

I'm seeing the exact same thing you are...

of course, none of this teams that he's a surefire #1C...anything can happen.

But right now, he's trending towards that and there's nothing that I saw that would make me change my mind.

This coming year, i'm hoping the coaching staff gives him accrued responsibilities - but what I suspect will happen is he'll go through another year of "apprenticeship".

 

[417]

I'm aware. Age doesn't wipe away all the things he needs to improve.

But age implies that he has things to work on - but it just seems like it's something that you're holding against him.

Perhaps it's just the way i'm interpreting what you're saying.

I mean, it goes without saying that a player who was 18yr old has things he needs to improve on.

Certainly felt that way, or I fail to see what point you were trying to make here. Are you suggesting he has nothing to improve and all his shortcomings are that of his linemates.

Once again, I wasn't trying to be snarky and I apologize it came off that way.

I don't see an offensive juggernaut here, how about you tell me about his elite offensive tools then and we can debate those?

His hockey sense is well ahead of where it would typically be for a player his age...his sense of anticipation of where teamates are and are supposed to be are already well tuned and should continue to get better. His puck placement for himself and teammates, etc

Im not saying he can't be a number 1, I'm just saying I don't see that elite toolkit on the offensive side of the puck, this could limit his ceiling. The rest of his game is already close.

Well beauty is in the eye of the beholder I suppose...but for example, Ryan O'Reilly doesn't have an elite offensive toolkit, does that mean he's not a #1C?

I don't agree with this. The habs board/fan base is huge and has wide variety of opinions, lumping everyone in together just isn't fair. I'm critical of other players faults on other teams and I'm high on guys within our own system. This has nothing to do with my evaluation of kotkaniemi.

Fair enough.

I just think there's a reluctance to focus on some of the good elements of this team because we're always focused on all the bad parts.

 

[Vachon23]

The only things that make me hesitate about KK is his lack of fluidity with the puck. It’s doesn’t look as easy as when Matthews, Eichel, MacKinnon an cie have the puck. I don’t see the wow factor and I don’t know if he can take controle the game

 

[Kotkaniemi15]

The only things that make me hesitate about KK is his lack of fluidity with the puck. It’s doesn’t look as easy as when Matthews, Eichel, MacKinnon an cie have the puck. I don’t see the wow factor and I don’t know if he can take controle the game

Speak for yourself

 

[BehindTheTimes]

But age implies that he has things to work on - but it just seems like it's something that you're holding against him.

Perhaps it's just the way i'm interpreting what you're saying.

I mean, it goes without saying that a player who was 18yr old has things he needs to improve on.

Obviously his age is not a knock against him and he will improve, I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. I don't why you would think I would hold that against him, it's a feather in his cap that he did as well as he did at such a young age.

Once again, I wasn't trying to be snarky and I apologize it came off that way.

Maybe I overreacted here. No need to apologize.

His hockey sense is well ahead of where it would typically be for a player his age...his sense of anticipation of where teamates are and are supposed to be are already well tuned and should continue to get better. His puck placement for himself and teammates, etc

Interestingly that I agree that these are his strengths. It's his puck skills that concern me a bit, not his IQ or anticipation.

Well beauty is in the eye of the beholder I suppose...but for example, Ryan O'Reilly doesn't have an elite offensive toolkit, does that mean he's not a #1C?

Not normally, I don't, but when the cast around him is strong enough, I see him more as a 1a/1b type. I know he's a bit of the flavour of the month and all because of his cup/smythe, so it will be hard to argue against, but on a deep team O'Reilly is good enough imo.

Fair enough.

I just think there's a reluctance to focus on some of the good elements of this team because we're always focused on all the bad parts.

I think the team is in good shape going forward, I'm a bit disappointed it took this long to be trending in the right direction, but I like where we seem to be going. Marc Bergevin can wipe all that away in one bad move though. I don't have faith in him, but I do like a lot of the kids.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

The only things that make me hesitate about KK is his lack of fluidity with the puck. It’s doesn’t look as easy as when Matthews, Eichel, MacKinnon an cie have the puck. I don’t see the wow factor and I don’t know if he can take controle the game

This is how I feel too.

 

[montreal]

I wouldn't try to predict Kotka's future based off his current play. No one knows how much he will progress while he's still in development age. So 5 years from now he'll still only be 23 and just hitting his prime years. By then he should have matured physically, have a bigger role, better linemates (since he's a playmaker it's going to come down to who he plays with).

I'd like to see him shoot more, his shot is sick but we'll see how he adjusts to the pros over the years.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I wouldn't try to predict Kotka's future based off his current play. No one knows how much he will progress while he's still in development age. So 5 years from now he'll still only be 23 and just hitting his prime years. By then he should have matured physically, have a bigger role, better linemates (since he's a playmaker it's going to come down to who he plays with).

I'd like to see him shoot more, his shot is sick but we'll see how he adjusts to the pros over the years.

Agreed, way too soon to say he is or isn't going to be xxxx. I see some things that concern me a bit, but I also see plenty of things I love. I just find it funny how everyone always blames the coach, the linemates, the ice time etc and then try to extrapolate from that if everything were different.

I'm.not a CJ fan now and I have never been, but I don't see anything wrong with his handling of kk last year. He was struggling as the season wore on IMO, and CJ saw the same things and some wanted to tack on 5-6 mins per game, I don't see how that was going to.help the team or KK who seemed to struggle a bit with load he was already carrying. Any who, I am excited to see where he ends up.

 

[montreal]

Agreed, way too soon to say he is or isn't going to be xxxx. I see some things that concern me a bit, but I also see plenty of things I love. I just find it funny how everyone always blames the coach, the linemates, the ice time etc and then try to extrapolate from that if everything were different.

I'm.not a CJ fan now and I have never been, but I don't see anything wrong with his handling of kk last year. He was struggling as the season wore on IMO, and CJ saw the same things and some wanted to tack on 5-6 mins per game, I don't see how that was going to.help the team or KK who seemed to struggle a bit with load he was already carrying. Any who, I am excited to see where he ends up.

I'm not a Julien fan at all, I was against having Kotka in the NHL and still think it would have been better had he been in Liiga and won a gold with Team Finland at the WJC's. I didn't like how CJ handled him, too cautious, too sheltered and not enough TOI. If he couldn't handle it, he shouldn't have been there. There's no need to rush an 18 year old imo.

 

[ottawa]

What was the issue with his offensive game?

Was it the dozen or so assists that went to waste because he didn't have linemates to bury his passes that's bothering you?

His IQ and vision impressed me, it's just too bad his linemates couldn't convert. He has an above average shot as well that he doesn't seem to use much either.

I think he should be a lock for around 45-50 points next year

 

[Vachon23]

Speak for yourself

Your name is Kotkaniemi15 with his picture in avatar... It’s normal that you don’t agree

 

[Mrb1p]

"Do YoU wAnT KoTkAnIeMi tO fAcE tOP lIneS anD gEt dEstROyEd deFeNsiVely?"

Anze Kopitars rookie season
Toi 20 mins
Es 14 minutes
PP 4 minutes
PK 2 minutes

So ruined

 

[Kriss E]

I certainly don't deny it...I just think it's a factor for everyone. So to me, that nullifies it in a way.

Kotkaniemi wasn't the only player who looked sloppy out there.

A 39yo, 28yo, and 18yo all react to fatigue differently. They're not robots. But yes, he wasn't the only one but that's irrelevant as we are discussing how giving him around 400-500 more minutes would have meant him getting more points. Surely, maybe an extra 5pts...but then he might have crashed sooner and struggled some more.
Impossible to know. As it stands, KK scored 11 goals 34pts, he did quite well for his rookie year mostly because he did it at such a young age. He also became pretty sloppy towards the end showing normal signs of fatigue.

Once more...I did not come up with the initial comparison, that was you lol

And nowhere did I say that Kotkaniemi = Kopitar.

I said using YOUR comparison...their rookie seasons, with applied context, were a lot closer to each other from a statistical point of view, then you're portraying.

And again, they're not. You just KK played less and weaker linemates, but then admitted having more ice time + better linemates doesn't necessarily translate into better results.
KK, if you look at context, compares way more to Galchenyuk and if you want to focus on pts/min, Galch smoked KK. He did it with similar linemates too spending a lot of it with Eller/Prust.

Yes, but that's normal.

Yes, and linear progression is anything but a guarantee. So I need to see more development of his game before claiming he'll be in a top legit center spot.

And there's nothing i've seen that indicates that shouldn't happen.

Of course...anything CAN happen...maybe he starts getting more of a liking for hanging out at New City Gas, then working on his game.

I can't predict that.

He can also work very hard, be serious, and never get there. Shit doesn't have to go off the rails for him not to become a top legit center. Again, he hasn't shown me enough for me to think he'll be one in that high end range.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

I'm not a Julien fan at all, I was against having Kotka in the NHL and still think it would have been better had he been in Liiga and won a gold with Team Finland at the WJC's. I didn't like how CJ handled him, too cautious, too sheltered and not enough TOI. If he couldn't handle it, he shouldn't have been there. There's no need to rush an 18 year old imo.

I disagree with, if he couldn't handle it, he shouldn't be here. He was eased it as he should have been, at his best KK showed he belonged without a doubt, no reason to keep him out of the lineup.

Nothing is this black and white, some can come in and handle big minutes right off the bat, some can't, it doesn't mean they don't belong, period. I think it was clear that if his work load would have been higher it would have been detrimental to his performance. I thought he was handled decently well.