Injury Report: Jesperi Kotkaniemi (Part IX)

Status
Not open for further replies.

417

BBQ Chicken Alert!
Feb 20, 2003
51,255
27,464
Ottawa
Kotka is by far our best prospect and he's not even a shoe in to be a top legit liner. So forget the rest, they like top out at top 6F and top 4D.
What is the skepticism surrounding Kotkaniemi exactly?

On any other teams board, an 18yr old, who started AND finished the season as an 18yr old and finished with 35pts would be seen as a top legit 1st liner.

I don't get it
 

angusyoung

The life of..The Party
Aug 17, 2014
11,673
11,920
Heirendaar
If he struggles like he did at the end of last year, I hope they give him time in Laval. It did wonders for Mete. Let him play with confidence in all situations. There's no rush. His long term development is most important.

And with Poehling in the mix, we have a few options at 3c, including weal and cousins.

Maybe increasing mass will help play his game more effectively. When he gets hit,he falls,at least try to avoid getting nailed. The kid is still a rake and needs time to grow like Thornton did,similar is style,but hope he can pot a bit more than Joe.
 

Kriss E

Registered User
May 3, 2007
55,329
20,272
Jeddah
What is the skepticism surrounding Kotkaniemi exactly?

On any other teams board, an 18yr old, who started AND finished the season as an 18yr old and finished with 35pts would be seen as a top legit 1st liner.

I don't get it

Because your generalizing, I'm not. If some kid did that in Florida and I watched him play...never...then I wouldn't speak on it.
I have however watched KK play all year and although his age is impressive, I'm not ready to say he will be a legit top center. Had he scored 60pts+ like Kopitar in his rookie season, ya. Even 50...But he didn't. He put up 35pts and while I get doing that at 18 is impressive, development isn't linear so I'll hold some reservations as to him becoming a legit #1 center.
That's not a knock on him.
 

417

BBQ Chicken Alert!
Feb 20, 2003
51,255
27,464
Ottawa
Because your generalizing, I'm not. If some kid did that in Florida and I watched him play...never...then I wouldn't speak on it.
I have however watched KK play all year and although his age is impressive, I'm not ready to say he will be a legit top center. Had he scored 60pts+ like Kopitar in his rookie season, ya. Even 50...But he didn't. He put up 35pts and while I get doing that at 18 is impressive, development isn't linear so I'll hold some reservations as to him becoming a legit #1 center.
That's not a knock on him.
Anze Kopita averaged over 20mins per game his rookie year playing between Mike Cammalleri (80pts) and Alexander Frolov (71pts) and he (Kopitar) finished with 61pts.

Kotkaniemi averaged just over 13 mins per game playing most of the year with Joel Armia and a revolving door of average left wingers.

Not the same deployment at all.

Kopitar averaged more ES TOI (13:49)...then Kotkaniemi averaged in ALL situations (13:44).

I get what you mean...but I think you're going out of your way to be critical (not in an unreasonable way mind you) of a young player who was sheltered. Maybe critical isn't the right word, but you know what I mean.

Glass half full vs half empty...I think you're clearly taking the latter here.

There's absolutely no reason why Habs fans shouldn't think Kotkaniemi has 1st line upside moving forward based on what we saw last year
 
Last edited:

BLONG7

Registered User
Oct 30, 2002
35,619
21,957
Nova Scotia
Visit site
Anze Kopita averaged over 20mins per game his rookie year playing between Mike Cammalleri (80pts) and Alexander Frolov (71pts) and he (Kopitar) finished with 61pts.

Kotkaniemi averaged just over 13 mins per game playing most of the year with Joel Armia and a revolving door of average left wingers.

Not the same deployment at all.

Kopitar averaged more ES TOI (13:49)...then Kotkaniemi averaged in ALL situations (13:44).

I get what you mean...but I think you're going out of your way to be critical (not in an unreasonable way mind you) of a young player who was sheltered. Maybe critical isn't the right word, but you know what I mean.

Glass half full vs half empty...I think you're clearly taking the latter here.

There's absolutely no reason why Habs fans shouldn't think Kotkaniemi has 1st line upside moving forward based on what we saw last year
Good post...........not sure he will get any fair chance, with Clod being Clod...hope to be wrong, but................
 
  • Like
Reactions: Pickles

Kriss E

Registered User
May 3, 2007
55,329
20,272
Jeddah
Anze Kopita averaged over 20mins per game his rookie year playing between Mike Cammalleri (80pts) and Alexander Frolov (71pts) and he (Kopitar) finished with 61pts.

Kotkaniemi averaged just over 13 mins per game playing most of the year with Joel Armia and a revolving door of average left wingers.

Not the same deployment at all.

Kopitar averaged more ES TOI (13:49)...then Kotkaniemi averaged in ALL situations (13:44).

I get what you mean...but I think you're going out of your way to be critical (not in an unreasonable way mind you) of a young player who was sheltered. Maybe critical isn't the right word, but you know what I mean.

Glass half full vs half empty...I think you're clearly taking the latter here.

There's absolutely no reason why Habs fans shouldn't think Kotkaniemi has 1st line upside moving forward based on what we saw last year
Literally nothing I said was critical.

I'm taking a more reasoned approach to expectations, that's it. If you want to say KK is gonna be a legit #1 center, go ahead, I'm not ready to jump on that ship just yet.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 417

26Mats

Registered User
Jun 23, 2018
31,736
24,116
It's not just Julien, we haven't done anything to get him better linemates this offseason.

I would have signed Mojo and Dzingle, to give kk some offensive vets to play with.

Now we have to hope Poehling and Suzuki are ready.
 

CauZuki

Registered User
Feb 19, 2008
12,289
12,110
It's not just Julien, we haven't done anything to get him better linemates this offseason.

I think the plan is to have his eventual winger come from the prospect pool. I'm not saying it's the best plan but it's looking that way. Bergevin bought himself a lot of time by having Molson endorse his "build it through the draft" approach. It allows him to dodge the questions of lack of playoff success as well as Price/Weber's eventual decline.
 

417

BBQ Chicken Alert!
Feb 20, 2003
51,255
27,464
Ottawa
Literally nothing I said was critical.
You're right, like I said, probably wrong use of word...

But saying he didn't have a rookie season like Kopitar, without context, is not accurate.

Is it likely Kotkaniemi reaches 60pts like Kopitar did with the copious amounts of ice time Kopitar received, not to mention the high quality linemates he had?

I think so

I'm taking a more reasoned approach to expectations, that's it. If you want to say KK is gonna be a legit #1 center, go ahead, I'm not ready to jump on that ship just yet.
There's nothing i've seen so far that indicates he won't...the arrow for me is pointing way up.

And i'm perplexed as to why it wouldn't be the same for all Habs fans.
 
  • Like
Reactions: KotkaSpicy

CauZuki

Registered User
Feb 19, 2008
12,289
12,110
You're right, like I said, probably wrong use of word...

But saying he didn't have a rookie season like Kopitar, without context, is not accurate.

Is it likely Kotkaniemi reaches 60pts like Kopitar did with the copious amounts of ice time Kopitar received, not to mention the high quality linemates he had?

I think so


There's nothing i've seen so far that indicates he won't...the arrow for me is pointing way up.

And i'm perplexed as to why it wouldn't be the same for all Habs fans.

Kopitar was also a year older when he made the NHL and as you mentioned had the benefit of linemates and ice-time. I don't see how it's difficult to predict future performance from an 18 year who hasn't physically matured yet and has demonstrated his elite playmaking IQ while being very good defensively. There's no reason to think he won't progress in a fairly linear fashion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ippenator and 417

Kriss E

Registered User
May 3, 2007
55,329
20,272
Jeddah
You're right, like I said, probably wrong use of word...

But saying he didn't have a rookie season like Kopitar, without context, is not accurate.

Is it likely Kotkaniemi reaches 60pts like Kopitar did with the copious amounts of ice time Kopitar received, not to mention the high quality linemates he had?

I think so
I don't. He was extremely sheltered this year, only averaged 13min and he was visibly getting tired by the last stretch. Increased ice time by 5 minutes per game, that fatigue would come early, not to mention playing versus tougher opponents.

I don't think KK would almost double his production had he been used like Kopitar. I don't think that's a fair and nuanced expectation either.
There's nothing i've seen so far that indicates he won't...the arrow for me is pointing way up.

And i'm perplexed as to why it wouldn't be the same for all Habs fans.

I wasn't particularly impressed by his offensive game. Habs fans are so desperate for skill that people were ready to build a statue of him after he made a spin-o-rama pass...
He showed some interesting things, but you speak like he's a shoe in to be a legit top center. I think he's a shoe in to be a top 2, anything more is still too early to tell for me. Not convinced yet.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Vachon23 and barbu

admiralcadillac

Registered User
Oct 22, 2017
7,460
6,655
Anze Kopita averaged over 20mins per game his rookie year playing between Mike Cammalleri (80pts) and Alexander Frolov (71pts) and he (Kopitar) finished with 61pts.

Kotkaniemi averaged just over 13 mins per game playing most of the year with Joel Armia and a revolving door of average left wingers.

Not the same deployment at all.

Kopitar averaged more ES TOI (13:49)...then Kotkaniemi averaged in ALL situations (13:44).

I get what you mean...but I think you're going out of your way to be critical (not in an unreasonable way mind you) of a young player who was sheltered. Maybe critical isn't the right word, but you know what I mean.

Glass half full vs half empty...I think you're clearly taking the latter here.

There's absolutely no reason why Habs fans shouldn't think Kotkaniemi has 1st line upside moving forward based on what we saw last year

How old was Kopitar?
 

417

BBQ Chicken Alert!
Feb 20, 2003
51,255
27,464
Ottawa
Kopitar was also a year older when he made the NHL and as you mentioned had the benefit of linemates and ice-time. I don't see how it's difficult to predict future performance from an 18 year who hasn't physically matured yet and has demonstrated his elite playmaking IQ while being very good defensively. There's no reason to think he won't progress in a fairly linear fashion.
There was absolutely nothing I saw last year that made me question his 1st line upside...in fact, if anything, it reinforced it.

Of course, that's not a guarantee that that's how it's going to play out.

But so far...arrow way up
 
  • Like
Reactions: KotkaSpicy

417

BBQ Chicken Alert!
Feb 20, 2003
51,255
27,464
Ottawa
I don't. He was extremely sheltered this year, only averaged 13min and he was visibly getting tired by the last stretch. Increased ice time by 5 minutes per game, that fatigue would come early, not to mention playing versus tougher opponents.
I don't think KK would almost double his production had he been used like Kopitar. I don't think that's a fair and nuanced expectation either.
I don't really buy the fatigued argument...all players tire in the 2nd half.

Julien used that as an excuse because the games got more meaningful and he wanted to fall back on his veterans.

I don't think another 25pts with a 6-7min increase in icetime (not to mention more then doubling his PP TOI) + more quality linemates is unreasonable.

Take Nico Hischier who in his 18yr old rookie season averaged just over 18 mins per game and finished with 52pts.

I wasn't particularly impressed by his offensive game. Habs fans are so desperate for skill that people were ready to build a statue of him after he made a spin-o-rama pass...
He showed some interesting things, but you speak like he's a shoe in to be a legit top center. I think he's a shoe in to be a top 2, anything more is still too early to tell for me. Not convinced yet.
I didn't say he's a shoe-in to be a top legit center...

I said there's nothing i've seen so far that suggests he won't be.

Of course, anything can happen and whether or not he becomes that is largely circumstantial (usage, quality of linemates, etc).

But again, i'm perplexed how you couldn't have been impressed with his offensive game last year, this isn't even about spin-o-rama passes...i'm talking about how mature his game was for an 18yr old, his overall game, his hockey sense which blew me away for how young he was.

He was miles ahead of where most thought he'd be.

Once again, I think any other fanbase would be buzzing based on what they saw from Kotkaniemi last year.
 
  • Like
Reactions: demetan33

Kriss E

Registered User
May 3, 2007
55,329
20,272
Jeddah
I don't really buy the fatigued argument...all players tire in the 2nd half.
Yes, and some more than others. Guys coming back from big injuries like Weber, or older guys like Markov, or younger guys like KK who never-ever played that much hockey versus that level of competition over the same timeline.
I don't listen to Claude Julien, I stream the games online then go to work. You telling me CJ said so now is the first I learn of it. I'm just basing this on what I saw.

Julien used that as an excuse because the games got more meaningful and he wanted to fall back on his veterans.

I don't think another 25pts with a 6-7min increase in icetime (not to mention more then doubling his PP TOI) + more quality linemates is unreasonable.

Take Nico Hischier who in his 18yr old rookie season averaged just over 18 mins per game and finished with 52pts.
I don't listen to Claude Julien, I stream the games online then go to work. You telling me CJ said so now is the first I learn of it. I'm just basing this on what I saw.

I did not watch Hischier play so I can't really talk about him, but whatever he did does not mean KK would also do. Things don't work that way man.

I didn't say he's a shoe-in to be a top legit center...

I said there's nothing i've seen so far that suggests he won't be.

Of course, anything can happen and whether or not he becomes that is largely circumstantial (usage, quality of linemates, etc).

But again, i'm perplexed how you couldn't have been impressed with his offensive game last year, this isn't even about spin-o-rama passes...i'm talking about how mature his game was for an 18yr old, his overall game, his hockey sense which blew me away for how young he was.

He was miles ahead of where most thought he'd be.

Once again, I think any other fanbase would be buzzing based on what they saw from Kotkaniemi last year.

Well I'm not talking about his overall game so maybe that's why you're perplexed. I'm specifically talking about his offensive game and it just wasn't mature enough for me to say he'll be a legit top line center.

Who's not ''buzzing" over KK?? I don't get it. Is saying I'm not yet convinced he'll be a legit top center such an insult? I'm extremely excited to see how this kid will keep developing and look forward to seeing him in camp bigger/stronger.
Saying I'm not convinced about him being a legit top center isn't bad or critical man.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Vachon23

DramaticGloveSave

Voice of Reason
Apr 17, 2017
14,565
13,196
Kotkaniemi certainly has first line upside, but it’s hardly a shoe-in he gets there. He needs development- particularly in strength and skating. If he can take those qualities and maximize his potential in those areas, he can be a great player. As of today though, he’s a mediocre middle 6 center. Obviously he’s young and there’s no reason to think he won’t maximize himself, but it is absolutely not a given.
 

417

BBQ Chicken Alert!
Feb 20, 2003
51,255
27,464
Ottawa
So a year older?
He was 18yrs old when drafted...and 19yrs old when his rookie NHL season started

If so maybe we should compare this year to Kopitar’s.
I think we can compare each of their rookie seasons but there needs to be context

Anze Kopitar 2006-2007 season

20 goals + 41 assists for 61pts in 72 games
TOI: 20:32
ES TOI: 13:49
PP TOI: 4:38
SH TOI: 2:06

Most common linemates: Mike Cammaleri (80pts), Alexander Frolov (71pts)

Jesperi Kotkaniemi 2018-2019 season

11 goals + 23 assists for 34pts in 79 games
TOI: 13:44
ES TOI: 11:48
PP TOI: 1:56
SH TOI: 0:00

Most common linemaes: Joel Armia (23pts) Arturri Lehkonen (31pts) Paul Byron (31pts)

I'm not even trying to say that Kotkaniemi is the next Kopitar...but if you're going to compare both players rookie seasons, context is hugely important.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ottawa

admiralcadillac

Registered User
Oct 22, 2017
7,460
6,655
He was 18yrs old when drafted...and 19yrs old when his rookie NHL season started


I think we can compare each of their rookie seasons but there needs to be context

Anze Kopitar 2006-2007 season

20 goals + 41 assists for 61pts in 72 games
TOI: 20:32
ES TOI: 13:49
PP TOI: 4:38
SH TOI: 2:06

Most common linemates: Mike Cammaleri (80pts), Alexander Frolov (71pts)

Jesperi Kotkaniemi 2018-2019 season

11 goals + 23 assists for 34pts in 79 games
TOI: 13:44
ES TOI: 11:48
PP TOI: 1:56
SH TOI: 0:00

Most common linemaes: Joel Armia (23pts) Arturri Lehkonen (31pts) Paul Byron (31pts)

I'm not even trying to say that Kotkaniemi is the next Kopitar...but if you're going to compare both players rookie seasons, context is hugely important.

Absolutely, what I mean is that age wise this will be a comparable year for Kotkaniemi. We’ll see what kind of linemates and opportunities he gets.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 417

417

BBQ Chicken Alert!
Feb 20, 2003
51,255
27,464
Ottawa
Yes, and some more than others. Guys coming back from big injuries like Weber, or older guys like Markov, or younger guys like KK who never-ever played that much hockey versus that level of competition over the same timeline.
I don't listen to Claude Julien, I stream the games online then go to work. You telling me CJ said so now is the first I learn of it. I'm just basing this on what I saw.
I just think it was a convenient excuse to lower the responsibilities of a young player when the games became more meaningful.

it's coach-speak for "I didn't trust him because he's young, i'd rather trust veterans who tire at the same rate".

I don't listen to Claude Julien, I stream the games online then go to work. You telling me CJ said so now is the first I learn of it. I'm just basing this on what I saw.

I did not watch Hischier play so I can't really talk about him, but whatever he did does not mean KK would also do. Things don't work that way man.
I know they don't...but we're just using comparables, which is each player's respective rookie seasons.

You had mentioned earlier that you'd have been more impressed by Kotkaniemi's rookie season had he produced 60pts like Kopitar did in his rookie season.

But I don't think you took context into account here...because using context, Kotkaniemi's rookie season was on par with Kopitar's.

Well I'm not talking about his overall game so maybe that's why you're perplexed. I'm specifically talking about his offensive game and it just wasn't mature enough for me to say he'll be a legit top line center.
Disagree about his offensive game being mature enough, but again, it's all relative...he was a very young 18yr old. No one was expecting a finished product here, but I think we saw a lot of things that most 18yr olds just don't do at the NHL level.

Who's not ''buzzing" over KK?? I don't get it. Is saying I'm not yet convinced he'll be a legit top center such an insult? I'm extremely excited to see how this kid will keep developing and look forward to seeing him in camp bigger/stronger.
Saying I'm not convinced about him being a legit top center isn't bad or critical man.
Not at all...I said a few times, I don't think you're being unreasonable.

But I do think you should be way more excited or assured based on what we saw last year.

This team has a lot of question marks moving forward...

Kotkaniemi's potential as a 1st liner, shouldn't be one of them, at least not IMO.
 

BehindTheTimes

Registered User
Jun 24, 2018
7,063
9,287
I don't. He was extremely sheltered this year, only averaged 13min and he was visibly getting tired by the last stretch. Increased ice time by 5 minutes per game, that fatigue would come early, not to mention playing versus tougher opponents.

I don't think KK would almost double his production had he been used like Kopitar. I don't think that's a fair and nuanced expectation either.


I wasn't particularly impressed by his offensive game. Habs fans are so desperate for skill that people were ready to build a statue of him after he made a spin-o-rama pass...
He showed some interesting things, but you speak like he's a shoe in to be a legit top center. I think he's a shoe in to be a top 2, anything more is still too early to tell for me. Not convinced yet.
I agree with you 100% kriss. Especially about his offensive game.
 

417

BBQ Chicken Alert!
Feb 20, 2003
51,255
27,464
Ottawa
I agree with you 100% kriss. Especially about his offensive game.
What was the issue with his offensive game?

Was it the dozen or so assists that went to waste because he didn't have linemates to bury his passes that's bothering you?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad

-->