Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi - Part 20 - Second line centre edition?

[Zorba]

Right. It's a concerning situation. But with the amount of good wingers Habs have, they could put Perreault at center and spread the minutes quite evenly between their lines 2-3-and 4, while the Suzuki's line get the most minutes and PP.

OR, as someone mentioned, they could package Drouin with a youngster or two to get that much needed reliable #2 centerman.

I don’t think Drouin and any youngster like Poehling are getting you a number 2 centre

 

[1909]

I don’t think Drouin and any youngster like Poehling are getting you a number 2 centre

If Drouin is in physical and mental shape. Why not ? I am sure he will thrive away from MTL.

 

[Zorba]

If Drouin is in physical and mental shape. Why not ? I am sure he will thrive away from MTL.

That means he has to start the season in Montreal and show he’s healthy.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

If my aunt was still alive she would be on her knees and pray for Kotkaniemi. Because this is what he needs. Some help from the guy up there, lol. Gonna be difficult, very difficult for Jesperi in the Atlantic division. An acrobat in practice have nets, Jesperi had Danault and now that he's gone, Jesperi have no nets. Nobody to stop the torrent of offence that Matthews, Tavares, Barkov, Aho, Bergeron and co will generate. Reminds me when Carbonneau was traded and Montgomery would do the same job, what a joke, what an incompetent gm who was thinking that.

Still no center to replace Danault and I guess the team will start like that. It's gonna be disastrous and ugly. This board will get ugly and dirty.

 

[Catanddogguitarrr]

If Drouin is in physical and mental shape. Why not ? I am sure he will thrive away from MTL.

My only hope to avoid a disaster is Poehling. Only him could replace Danault if no center is signed. I'll cross my fingers.

 

[Habby4Life]

Right. It's a concerning situation. But with the amount of good wingers Habs have, they could put Perreault at center and spread the minutes quite evenly between their lines 2-3-and 4, while the Suzuki's line get the most minutes and PP.

OR, as someone mentioned, they could package Drouin with a youngster or two to get that much needed reliable #2 centerman.

I think they need to go the second route and get a 2c. They can’t expect NS to carry the entire offensive load from the middle.

KK brings nothing, ZERO to the second PP unit. He isn’t capable of handling big minutes against top lines. Just package him and get a real center.

Perrault and Evans can handle the 3/4 spot.

 

[Archijerej]

He was on his Russian Jr team? No?

Briefly.

 

[Pickles]

It’s AG cycle all over again. It will always be his wingers, the coach, his pregame meal, he didn’t get the jersey number he wanted, etc. The fact is he hasn’t progressed and is barely an NHL center.

The good news one or two more years of him starfishing on the ice and he will be gone.

Habs drafted for need, the swung, they missed, and Ottawa got the real player.

It really is when you think about it.

Both players drafted 3rd overall

Both players rushed to the NHL.

Both players started on the 3rd line

Both players pushed aside for local players with lesser talent.

You'd think they would learn from their mistakes...

 

[Belial]

It really is when you think about it.

Both players drafted 3rd overall

Both players rushed to the NHL.

Both players started on the 3rd line

Both players pushed aside for local players with lesser talent.

You'd think they would learn from their mistakes...

No, it's really not at all!

KK is a lot better than Chucky, it's not even close!

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

JKO scored more than caufield while playing with Byron & Anderson...

Suzuki's ppg was flat, JKOs increased in the playoffs...

JKO was 2nd on the team in P/60, behind CC & comfortably ahead of Suzuki.

Context.
Matters.

Well, clearly contexts doesn't matter.

Kk got most of his goals against Toronto and the first game against Winnipeg. After that I don't believe he got any.

Suzuki's ppg is flat is a bad thing now ? Still producing a solid clip for a young player. Caufields's first playoffs after playing a handful of NHL games.

Suzuki got more pp time than KK would have, but out PP sucks and 5 on 5 the other team is more concerned about shutting down Suzuki and Caufield than they would be shutting down KK. This stat is akin to people who show 5 on 5 production and see Gallagher, or Danault around, or ahead of some very talented players.

 

[TannedBum]

KK is a lot better than Chucky, it's not even close!

Well, at least that's true.

KK 0.36 ppg
Galchenyuck 0.57 ppg

 

[Belial]

Well, at least that's true.

KK 0.36 ppg
Galchenyuck 0.57 ppg

What are those numbers? Bring some context at least if you want to make a point...

 

[Sorinth]

No he didn't. Chris Higgins scored 40 goals twice if you try to make up an argument with 30-40 games stretches.

Not sure why you brought up Staal at all in your post so I didn't address it neither. But if we're at the point where it's an excuse why our former 3rd overall pick stopped producing consistently, we're in trouble.

No he didn't, he was 0.5 ppg for the first 38 games.

When did he produce at a .5ppg rate ? You realize all 56 games count , right?

20 points in 56 games isn't 0.5 ppg. His best ppg rate was during his 1st season. However, this kind of curve isn't exactly abnormal I believe. 0.43 ppg during the 1st season, 0.22 ppg during his 2nd season and 0.35 ppg during his 3rd. In my opinion, the upcoming season is the the one that will determine his progression. We should expect something between 0.43 and 0.5 ppg to see true progression and have his best statistical season. If he's around 0.35 ppg again, I think it's safe to say that he will amount to a 35-45 points per season C. Fine on the 3rd line.

Like I said read the original post.

If Kotkaniemi needed to produce at 0.5ppg to prove he deserves a top-6 spot then why was he demoted when he acquired Staal while producing at a 0.5ppg pace?

 

[BehindTheTimes]

When you talk offense with Cizikas, you don’t know his game! He’s basically a cheaper Danault and can be leaned on heavy in our end with Evans. Cizikas is very underrated and important part of the Islanders D system they had with Trotz

The only way to transfer strategy to more offensive structure is Eichel. If you can’t make a trade work, Cizikas is a solid Danault replacement. Don’t ignore defense with Price strategy! Being average on offense and average on defense is not a smart plan

He’s not even remotely comparable to Danault. This is a hard pass. We don’t have 4million more to squander.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

As for KK, I’m a big fan and I still have big expectations for the kid, but his play for the last 2 years has been far more inconsistent and concerning than I expected. I thought he would be showing signs at least of comfortably moving into the 2C spot and I just don’t see it yet.

I think he may get there, but I won’t be completely shocked if he doesn’t. His play last year wasn’t where it should have been IMO. We shall see.

 

[Habs Halifax]

They should go after Dvorak. There is no way they can enter the season with this group of centerman. NS will be the only C that will be able to generate any offense.

I'm not knocking Evans because I think he is a good 3/4c and will do a good job defensively and will chip in occasionally on the scoresheet. The problem is KK isnt a 2c and right now is a 3c at best.

I think we all realize the concerns of Suzuki, KK, Evans, and whoever. Not much experience there. The question is who do we consider a solution?

Dvorak is not a bad option but when I look at the Coyotes roster, I feel they need him at center more than we do. So cost to acquire will be steep. Would they take Poehling and Drouin? Maybe add pick? Not sure on that one.

Cizikas is very underrated and Ducharme and rely on him with Evans. Free to sign at the moment! I would be content with Evans/Cizikas playing the 200' and defense role and Suzuki/KK playing the offensive role. Then you got Poehling right behind them hungry to steel a job. It's not an Eichel add but it addresses the concerns

 

[Habs Halifax]

I’ll stand by my opinion. No thx to cizikas. He’s a black hole of offence. Might as well let kotkaniemi play and see what happens

You can stand by your opinion all you want but you are not making any sense. You sign Cizikas to play D but and you let KK play offense.

* Eichel would be ideal. Can we pull it off? Not sure
* Dvorak would be a decent add but Coyotes appear to need him more than we do. Cost to acquire would be more than what we would like IMO.
* Cizikas is not an offensive add. He's basically a cheaper Danault. Someone to take faceoffs in our own zone with Evans. This frees up Suzuki and KK for more offensive roles.

You don't see value in Cizikas and Evans playing D while Suzuki and KK play offensive? I get the feeling you think Cizikas would block KK? That's not why we would sign Cizikas. You think offence is more important than defense? Like we are going to turn into a top 5 offensive team all of a sudden?

 

[Rockomax]

Staal centered the 4th line. He didn't take KK's spot

 

[Habs Halifax]

Not sure I get the strategy behind investing all that money in goaltending and then aiming to surround them with a defensive first strategy.

Look no further that the last playoff run. That was the strategy and it worked all the way to the finals.

Look at the Devils with Brodeur?

 

[Sens]

Suzuki as a 20 year old
71-13-28-41 (10-4-3-7 playoffs)

kotkanemi as a 20 year old
56-5-15-20 (19-5-3-8 playoffs)

suzuki is going to go on to be a 70+ point two-way star

Kotkanemi is a bust that needs to go to the khl to have any hope at hockey

I don’t understand

 

[Habs Halifax]

He’s not even remotely comparable to Danault. This is a hard pass. We don’t have 4million more to squander.

Disagree. Trotz used Cizikas a lot in the defensive zone and all you see is he played "4th line" which is flawed. Islanders roll lines like we do. Cizikas is very underrated as a defensive center who takes a lot of draws in his own end.

Danault is all around better but not as substantial as you think.... especially when you look at usage and if Cizikas gets increased ice time. I bet you have haven't even watched Cizikas that much and it's similar to Chiarot with the Jets. He was effective but blocked from more minutes

We should go after Eichel. If that falls though... get someone to take defensive draws with Evans. Don't over think it

 

[Garbox]

The biggest issue with KK is how we took him in the draft with the expectation he was a long term prospect and then a few months later, we put him in the NHL.

Timeline:
* Started the year ranked 20-30 range.
* Was ranked mid pack (15th ish) half way though the year
* Had a great U18's and increased his stock value in a draft that did not have a lot of centers.
* We drafted him as a long term center prospect.
* He went from playing bottom 6 sheltered role in the Liiga league at age 17 to 3C in the NHL at age 18. This coming right after his rookie camp with us was meh and he didn't dominate.

Habs rushed the kid and that's problem #1. I still think he will turn into a solid player for us but Montreal is the last place that should be rushing prospects to fill holes. Until he fills into that frame, you are going to see more discussion and distraction on how good he is. It's what our fan base does... we like to talk and ride small ups/downs all the time.

Agree with this mostly. Only thing is that I don't think he was rushed originally, as the Habs had a spot and he was able to play in a responsible way and not just survive. He was learning the defensive aspects of the game he would need in the future and doing it in the toughest possible environment. I think it only made his progression faster on that area. And he also saw what he needs to improve to be able to become a top6 C. The end of the season was a bit odd, "fatiqued" and into the stands. If they thought he was too tored to play in the NHL, I think he would've still beem able to play in the A. But whatever.

Next season was a disaster, he tried to bulk up all he could and lost his legs, so there was nothing to work with. He was just trying to survive, and failing a lot too. He should've been put in the A quite fast to get minutes and get his feet up to speed. And the groin injury and concussion came into play too. Then he had a good summer and strong play offs in the bubble.

Another off season (kind of) and more training. Then to play in Liiga, which helped him to get a good start for his third season (even though his time here in Liiga was a bit disappointing, but it was his training camp sort of). So this third season was somewhat what it should've been in terms of playing. Decent production at first too. But the line lottery he was put in at some point didn't actually help him, as it sure didn't help the wingers that were in it. Him being put of the lineup in the finals was a bit strange too, well, not strange if your coach goes with the old time hockey gamebook and plays vets over younger ones no matter what their results are.

So to sum it up, I think all he could have gained for staying in Liiga for his first season might have been the gained strenth. So in my opinion the things he learned that season in the NHL outweighs that by a mile. His first off season training was a bit questionable, too much focus in bulking up and gaining strength (or at least gaining it to "wrong" parts), should've maybe shift some of the focus in his skating technique (and endurance at the same time, as Barkov said that when he started working with the figure skating coach he thought he would die at first).
That and his second season is something I see that could've been handled better. Last season he maybe should've got some chances to play in Danault's spot as he was not actually lighting it up. And KK definitely isn't a liability in his own end, if not at Danault's level yet. Keep the puck at the other end and you won't have to defend...

But as your main point originally was; KK was drafted as a long term project, everyone was talking about 5 years minimum. He's on that path.

And to some posters; why didn't they take Tkatchuk instead when he was the more ready player? Because they saw that KK will be the better player in the long run and in a more valuable spot. We'll see if it happens or bot, but I have confidence in it as they adapted his training for his second off season etc.

 

[MSLs absurd thighs]

JKO scored more than caufield while playing with Byron & Anderson...

Suzuki's ppg was flat, JKOs increased in the playoffs...

Suzuki's POG was flat.

JKO was 2nd on the team in P/60, behind CC & comfortably ahead of Suzuki.

Context.
Matters.

lol. You guys are too much.

"Suzuki's PPG was flat"

No shit sherlock. He lead the team in scoring two years in a row. Somehow this is supposed to be a bad thing and a testament for Kotkaniemi who was scratched by the coaching staff for the last two games.

Let me guess. Because Julien, Muller, Ducharme, Richardson and Burrows are all idiots?

 

[Habs Halifax]

Agree with this mostly. Only thing is that I don't think he was rushed originally, as the Habs had a spot and he was able to play in a responsible way and not just survive. He was learning the defensive aspects of the game he would need in the future and doing it in the toughest possible environment. I think it only made his progression faster on that area. And he also saw what he needs to improve to be able to become a top6 C. The end of the season was a bit odd, "fatiqued" and into the stands. If they thought he was too tored to play in the NHL, I think he would've still beem able to play in the A. But whatever.

Next season was a disaster, he tried to bulk up all he could and lost his legs, so there was nothing to work with. He was just trying to survive, and failing a lot too. He should've been put in the A quite fast to get minutes and get his feet up to speed. And the groin injury and concussion came into play too. Then he had a good summer and strong play offs in the bubble.

Another off season (kind of) and more training. Then to play in Liiga, which helped him to get a good start for his third season (even though his time here in Liiga was a bit disappointing, but it was his training camp sort of). So this third season was somewhat what it should've been in terms of playing. Decent production at first too. But the line lottery he was put in at some point didn't actually help him, as it sure didn't help the wingers that were in it. Him being put of the lineup in the finals was a bit strange too, well, not strange if your coach goes with the old time hockey gamebook and plays vets over younger ones no matter what their results are.

So to sum it up, I think all he could have gained for staying in Liiga for his first season might have been the gained strenth. So in my opinion the things he learned that season in the NHL outweighs that by a mile. His first off season training was a bit questionable, too much focus in bulking up and gaining strength (or at least gaining it to "wrong" parts), should've maybe shift some of the focus in his skating technique (and endurance at the same time, as Barkov said that when he started working with the figure skating coach he thought he would die at first).
That and his second season is something I see that could've been handled better. Last season he maybe should've got some chances to play in Danault's spot as he was not actually lighting it up. And KK definitely isn't a liability in his own end, if not at Danault's level yet. Keep the puck at the other end and you won't have to defend...

But as your main point originally was; KK was drafted as a long term project, everyone was talking about 5 years minimum. He's on that path.

And to some posters; why didn't they take Tkatchuk instead when he was the more ready player? Because they saw that KK will be the better player in the long run and in a more valuable spot. We'll see if it happens or bot, but I have confidence in it as they adapted his training for his second off season etc.

It's horrible to think there was a spot available and then turn around and rush him into that spot cause it's open. He was meh at rookie camp and we headed into the season with Danault, Peca, DLR, Pleky as centers. Domi had a good season at center that year but how could we predict that?

There is no way KK makes the team if our center depth was not so crappy. Montreal is the last place you should rush prospects

 

[Garbox]

It's horrible to think there was a spot available and then turn around and rush him into that spot cause it's open. He was meh at rookie camp and we headed into the season with Danault, Peca, DLR, Pleky as centers. Domi had a good season at center that year but how could we predict that?

There is no way KK makes the team if our center depth was not so crappy. Montreal is the last place you should rush prospects

I agree, he wouldn't have got the spot usually. His rookie camp was the meh one, he started to show something in the training camp and especially in the exhibition games because he wasn't sent back to Finland. He took giant development leap between August and April that season. I see no way that steep of a curve to happen if he was playing here instead (in Finland that is). But after that there has been questionable decisions by his training group and the team (or coaches more likely).

I understand though why people say they shouldn't have rushed him. It raised the expectations way up when in reality his physique was always going to make him a long term project. Maybe the team should've communicated better with the community about the matter. Or maybe they got too excited too and thought he was going to be ready in two years.