Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi Part 17

[azcanuck]

And the even saddder part is that Lekhonen, Evans, Byron and Toffoli are all better PK players than Danault

DAnualt has been much better than KK this year, and this is Phil's worst year in years.

 

[BLONG7]

You absolutely are blaming "the french" and insinuation that the only way "french" players can do anything on this team is through special treatment. But if KK had been "french" he'd probably getting the Latendresse treatment right now. You remember all the posters here mocking "Fatendresse" and saying that he's never be in the NHL if he wasn't french? Also, he would probably also get the Chouinard/Leblanc treatment where everyone here would bash the team because they obviously picked him only because he was "french".

Nope...not even close....

 

[Habs Icing]

KK is going to be great - two years from now.

As an accountant or an importer/exporter?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

KK has one single assist in his last 265 minutes of play, including 35 minutes of PP time. In that 18 games span Suzuki has 15 points, Evans has 6 (in 12 games) and Danault has 4 (in 16 games). I think KK has had a longer leash than many other 20 year olds would have had.

And yet... he's been far more effective in overall play than Eric Staal has been. And we continue to play Staal more and use him on the PP.

And the really dumb thing is that KK had been putting up some decent points once DD took over. Was playing well and reasonably productive until we picked up Staal. Then Staal started eating into his opportunities.

Staal has been absolutely terrible. Bad all the way across the board and yet our coach has decided to bank things on him rather than the younger better player. It's another very clear example of us being stupid with a player who we're counting on heavily for the future.

There's no excuse for this. It's f***ing stupid.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Stop making cross ice passes at the blue line would be a start...

Nope. Sorry that's just another example of a coach being a dumbass.

If a young player makes a mistake, benching him like that is only going to damage his confidence. It's a great way to ruin a player. MT was an expert at this.

But you know what, maybe he's injured.

I expect ups and downs from younger players. He's not injured at all from what I can see. In a bad slump offensively but he's played solid defensive hockey all year long and has been good at driving the play in the other team's end.

All the more reason why it's so mystifying as to why we'd play Staal over him.

 

[Rosso Scuderia]

Not for nothing, but the bolded is blatantly false. He's generally played 3C minutes and he's had such a churn of linemates that the guys he spends the most time on the ice with are D-men. Which is far from normal. He's also very clearly play in a manner as to avoid defensive mistakes (low event hockey with a priority on avoiding mistakes), which matches what I'm seeing. He's been horribly managed by the organization, especially recently.

His upside is still what it always was. A good two-way top-6 Center. He's not comparable to Eller. Apart from perhaps that the Habs also mismanaged Eller. Just like they mismanaged Mete and most other young players in the organization.

KK icetime average is like 13 seconds less than Gallagher and 11 less than Tatar. Even on the PP, he had his share this season. He had more PP on average than Anderson, Armia and Danault. Only 2 seconds less than Gallagher.


We have depth on the wing this season so he played with plenty of top 6/9 wingers. And with all the injuries, it was an opportunity for him to step up and he didn't. He had a good playoffs last season, we expected more of him this season and its yet another disappointing one. The progression, if any, is less than expected.

I agree that we suck at developing players and I will defend the players way before the organization, gm, coaching staffs but I refused to say that KK had no opportunities this season.

As a 20 yr old, in a 3rd C role, he was in a good position to develop and progress. It's not like we play him scrubs and he had a good amount of PP for a 3rd C.

 

[Ozmodiar]

If a young player makes a mistake, benching him like that is only going to damage his confidence. It's a great way to ruin a player. MT was an expert at this.

KK wasn’t benched for one mistake. He was benched for how he was playing last night. Multiple mistakes.

 

[Paddy17]

KK icetime average is like 13 seconds less than Gallagher and 11 less than Tatar. Even on the PP, he had his share this season. He had more PP on average than Anderson, Armia and Danault. Only 2 seconds less than Gallagher.


We have depth on the wing this season so he played with plenty of top 6/9 wingers. And with all the injuries, it was an opportunity for him to step up and he didn't. He had a good playoffs last season, we expected more of him this season and its yet another disappointing one. The progression, if any, is less than expected.

I agree that we suck at developing players and I will defend the players way before the organization, gm, coaching staffs but I refused to say that KK had no opportunities this season.

As a 20 yr old, in a 3rd C role, he was in a good position to develop and progress. It's not like we play him scrubs and he had a good amount of PP for a 3rd C.

Although slower than we would want, his development and progression was fine this year, until Staal arrived.

 

[Rosso Scuderia]

KK wasn’t benched for one mistake. He was benched for how he was playing last night. Multiple mistakes.

Exactly. He was brutal last night. Nothing worked and for the first time this season, he had less than 10 minutes and apparently that's enough to ruin his career and development.

 

[durojean]

KK and Eric Staal are both playing about the same right now. But I'd actually like to see what Staal could do with Tatar and Anderson because he already was in that role in the NHL and succeeding at it.

KK deserves to be demoted and has shown some kind of chemistry an actual line of Perry KK Caufield still could provide some punch.

 

[Rosso Scuderia]

Although slower than we would want, his development and progression was fine this year, until Staal arrived.

Defensively I would agree. Offensively I don't see much progress. He still makes the same mistakes. He needs to be more poised with the puck and take better decisions with it.

 

[Schooner Guy]

Again....he's only 20. He probably wasn't the best player we could have taken at #3 in that draft but he's way ahead of Barrett Hayton (the 2nd center picked). To put things in perspective, Caufield's less than 6 months younger than KK, plays a less demanding position and he's the current HF boards golden boy despite 3 points in 9 games (2 in 3v3 OT) and some PP time. These two players are both so freaking young.

 

[Monsieur Miz]

People here laugh at the "NO EXCUSES" bullshit from Therrien's era and yet, they find all the excuses in the world to explain Kotkaniemi's garbage play. I prefer playing him over Staal but then again, that would give him what... 2 extra minutes of ice time?

 

[Paddy17]

Defensively I would agree. Offensively I don't see much progress. He still makes the same mistakes. He needs to be more poised with the puck and take better decisions with it.

I thought he was doing well. He was our best center for a good stretch when Suzuki could barely stand on the ice and Danault had 0 on the counter. He has to work on his shot release and a few things, but those things can be corrected over time, experience and good coaching. His fundamental plays improved, and that's what I wanted to see. He was making good plays that didn't always ended up in points.

 

[Schooner Guy]

People here laugh at the "NO EXCUSES" bullshit from Therrien's era and yet, they find all the excuses in the world to explain Kotkaniemi's garbage play. I prefer playing him over Staal but then again, that would give him what... 2 extra minutes of ice time?

If someone laughs at "no excuses" from Therrien era, wouldn't they be full of shit if they said "no excuses" for Kotkaniemi's play at age 20? You're contradicting yourself.

 

[1909]

We should really go the detroit way with kids. Let him develop and gain confidence in a weaker league before bringing them up. Its not complicated why the F they always rush our young players. Caufield should play in the AHL a full season next year instead of playing on the 4th line in montreal

We are not talking about the Red Wings of the last half dozen years for sure, here.

 

[JoelWarlord]

Suzuki and Evans got the same treatment. Didn't affect them negatively.

If you want to fault management I'm with you but not because they screwed up KK's development, rather because with a 3rd OA pick they selected such a flawed player.

Suzuki absolutely did not get the same treatment. He has been playing as a top 6 center with top 6 linemates and consistent top 6 ice time/role for a calendar year now, and played his D+1 and D+2 in the OHL, not as an NHL 3C. Evans finished his entire NCAA career and spent two full seasons in the AHL before becoming an NHL regular.

 

[1909]

Tough game marred by mistakes and failure to execute. Not a good audition for the playoffs. A bad sign when Staal, his competition, played 5 more minutes.

I just hope he can add strength and greatly improve his skating in the offseason.

I would be surprised to see him dressed for Game One vs TO. If Danault is back. Ducharme gonna keep Staal as his #4 centerman.

 

[1909]

Suzuki absolutely did not get the same treatment. He has been playing as a top 6 center with top 6 linemates and consistent top 6 ice time/role for a calendar year now, and played his D+1 and D+2 in the OHL, not as an NHL 3C. Evans finished his entire NCAA career and spent two full seasons in the AHL before becoming an NHL regular.

Why ? Because he is a better overall player than KK.

 

[1909]

Again....he's only 20. He probably wasn't the best player we could have taken at #3 in that draft but he's way ahead of Barrett Hayton (the 2nd center picked). To put things in perspective, Caufield's less than 6 months younger than KK, plays a less demanding position and he's the current HF boards golden boy despite 3 points in 9 games (2 in 3v3 OT) and some PP time. These two players are both so freaking young.

They are young, indeed. And would had been better served by playing in lesser league for a year or two.

 

[Captain Mountain]

KK icetime average is like 13 seconds less than Gallagher and 11 less than Tatar. Even on the PP, he had his share this season. He had more PP on average than Anderson, Armia and Danault. Only 2 seconds less than Gallagher.


We have depth on the wing this season so he played with plenty of top 6/9 wingers. And with all the injuries, it was an opportunity for him to step up and he didn't. He had a good playoffs last season, we expected more of him this season and its yet another disappointing one. The progression, if any, is less than expected.

I agree that we suck at developing players and I will defend the players way before the organization, gm, coaching staffs but I refused to say that KK had no opportunities this season.

As a 20 yr old, in a 3rd C role, he was in a good position to develop and progress. It's not like we play him scrubs and he had a good amount of PP for a 3rd C.

The part you're missing is that for a lot of the season, KK was doing well. In spite of the fact that he had new linemates every other game. He produced more than Suzuki at ES up until a couple of weeks ago. Its not like he's been trash all season, this is a recent thing and almost definitely tied to injuries/schedule/Ducharme's inconsistency.

Context matters. This is one breakdown of some stats from April:



And most lines with him work:



He was a raw player and is unfortunately simply playing to keep a spot in the line-up, which is why he's not producing and why the other team doesn't score when he's on the ice (even if he's started to face tougher competition).

This is what the Habs under Bergevin do to young players. Suzuki was going through it earlier this season (his saving grace roster-wise is he's great on the PP and he's hasn't had as much line-mate turnover). Its what Montreal did to Mete. They refused to use him properly, had him playing scared, and then get to watch him be a very effective PMD with a stay at home D-man in tough minutes (which is literally the kind of D-man they need).

I'm not giving KK a pass, but piling on him is unreasonable. The Habs have straight up not developed anyone under Bergevin. At all. Suzuki is the best case scenario there, but he's been inconsistent as well and he wasn't drafted by Montreal.

 

[Roadhouse]

Why is his face so caved in still? Where's the meat? Where's the improved skating? Where's the shot Allen called a "rocket"?

The team is cursed. Draft top 3? Ha, better Bring a Trailer because it's one hell of a project. At 3. Not 15... 3.

 

[Schooner Guy]

They are young, indeed. And would had been better served by playing in lesser league for a year or two.

Absolutely. Playing in a lesser league for his two post-draft seasons would have been better for his confidence, development etc AND it wouldn't have raised our psychopath fan base's expectations to such a ridiculous level. This should be his rookie year and we'd all be thrilled at 20+ points in a 56 game rookie season at a demanding position.

 

[1909]

Absolutely. Playing in a lesser league for his two post-draft seasons would have been better for his confidence, development etc AND it wouldn't have raised our psychopath fan base's expectations to such a ridiculous level. This should be his rookie year and we'd all be thrilled at 20+ points in a 56 game rookie season at a demanding position.

This organisation doesn't know shit about how to handle young players. They are ruining KK, and I hope, they won't ruin CC either,

 

[sampollock]

KK interview this am,
He sounds low
Reporters grilled him