Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi (Part 12)

[Runner77]

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[Mrb1p]

Cant wait till the KK thread falls to the 10th page like the Gally page because hes so good theres nothing to say about him.

 

[417]

Re: conservative development @TooLegitToQuit

I think the Habs have been extremely conservative with pretty much every prospect they've had over the years.

The only ones they haven't are Subban, Gallagher and Price.

And I'd say that worked out pretty well.

You pick a guy 3rd overall not to be conservative but because you expect him to make an impact sooner rather then later.

They were safe with Kotkaniemi last year...time to move on to the next stage now.

Amp it up...he can handle a bit more.

 

[Redux91]

Cant wait till thw KK thread falps to the 10th page like the Gally page because hes so good theres nothing to say about him.

Nonsense, your whining and complaining and random danault posts alone were able to fill up the last thread just fine lol.

 

[Archijerej]

I think the Habs have been extremely conservative with pretty much every prospect they've had over the years.

The only ones they haven't are Subban, Gallagher and Price.

I think you're mixing up cause and effect in this case. Price, Gallagher and Subban were very good and coachable right from the beginning, that's why they were given more rope. What you see as a difference of method is in fact a consistent application of the same method, but in regard to special players.

 

[Habs Halifax]

Re: conservative development @TooLegitToQuit

I think the Habs have been extremely conservative with pretty much every prospect they've had over the years.

The only ones they haven't are Subban, Gallagher and Price.

And I'd say that worked out pretty well.

You pick a guy 3rd overall not to be conservative but because you expect him to make an impact sooner rather then later.

They were safe with Kotkaniemi last year...time to move on to the next stage now.

Amp it up...he can handle a bit more.

They were not conservative with Galchenyuk, Kotkaniemi, Suzuki, DLR, Mete, Latendresse, Price. None of them proved themselves in the AHL before they inserted them into the NHL. They allowed Subban, Gallagher, & Patch to proves themselves at the pro level before they inserted them into the NHL.

Not saying you need to manage every case the same but pretending we have been conservative on every prospect except for Subban, Gallagher and Price is not something I agree with.

In a lot of cases where we rushed them with minimal AHL time (or none at all), the player made the team cause the spot was open due to lack of depth. It reeks of desperation to insert them cause we think they will be the solution in the short term. Sometimes it works, but most times it does not.

If they make the NHL early, Careful management to not ruin their confidence is required

 

[ECWHSWI]

I think you're mixing up cause and effect in this case. Price, Gallagher and Subban were very good and coachable right from the beginning, that's why they were given more rope. What you see as a difference of method is in fact a consistent application of the same method, but in regard to special players.

Gallagher is a 50 pts player, and as much as I like the guy... well every team has A FEW of them you know...

 

[Hannibal]

Down the road, Weal will be the best player of the two.

 

[417]

I think you're mixing up cause and effect in this case. Price, Gallagher and Subban were very good and coachable right from the beginning, that's why they were given more rope. What you see as a difference of method is in fact a consistent application of the same method, but in regard to special players.

There's nothing that indicates to me that Kotkaniemi isn't coachable.

But if love to hear your perspective if you think otherwise (no sarcasm)

 

[417]

They were not conservative with Galchenyuk, Kotkaniemi, Suzuki, DLR, Mete, Latendresse, Price. None of them proved themselves in the AHL before they inserted them into the NHL. They allowed Subban, Gallagher, & Patch to proves themselves at the pro level before they inserted them into the NHL.

PK Subban played 77 AHL games
Brendan Gallagher played 36 AHL games
Carey Price played 12 AHL games
Max Pacioretty played 82 AHL games

Is that enough data for you to say that's what made the difference? Maybe that really had nothing to do with anything, I seriously doubt PK Subban became the player he is/was because he played 77 AHL games.

His career arc would have likely been the exact same had he never played a single minute - though, there's really no way of knowing.

Meanwhile Charles Hudon's got over 230AHL games under his belt and he's never been able to establish himself as an NHLer and today, he's in the AHL.

Not saying you need to manage every case the same but pretending we have been conservative on every prospect except for Subban, Gallagher and Price is not something I agree with.

In a lot of cases where we rushed them with minimal AHL time, the player made the team cause the spot was open due to lack of depth

I've never bought the argument that playing in the AHL makes a prospect more likely to succeed in the NHL.

Pedigree, ability, opportunity, work ethic...etc

That's what makes a player reach his potential.

 

[Habs Halifax]

PK Subban played 77 AHL games
Brendan Gallagher played 36 AHL games
Carey Price played 12 AHL games
Max Pacioretty played 82 AHL games

Is that enough data for you to say that's what made the difference? Maybe that really had nothing to do with anything, I seriously doubt PK Subban became the player he is/was because he played 77 AHL games.

His career arc would have likely been the exact same had he never played a single minute - though, there's really no way of knowing.

Meanwhile Charles Hudon's got over 230AHL games under his belt and he's never been able to establish himself as an NHLer and today, he's in the AHL.


I've never bought the argument that playing in the AHL makes a prospect more likely to succeed in the NHL.

Pedigree, ability, opportunity, work ethic...etc

That's what makes a player reach his potential.

You need to show more than just games played. Production in those games matters and each case is different in terms of age and where they are at in the transition to the pro game.

I don't think it's smart asset management to let the kid struggle in the NHL while they learn how to deal with bigger players and less time and space. Player confidence in development is important. I know they are aware of this but inserting them cause we have holes is premature

 

[Censored Toad]

He either plays alot, or send him down to Laval where he can play alot.

At this stage, he should be playing alot of time.

 

[417]

You need to show more than just games played. Production in those games matters and each case is different in terms of age and where they are at in the transition to the pro game.

The point i'm making is I don't think spending 1 season or in many cases, less then a full year...is what makes or breaks prospects.

At the end of the day, what's important when it comes to young players is for them to play....when the NHL can't provide that opportunity, I agree...AHL is the way to go.

But it's not a must with every prospect and I hate that people always want to see them sent down whenever they struggle.

I don't think it's smart asset management to let the kid struggle in the NHL while they learn how to deal with bigger players and less time and space. Player confidence in development is important. I know they are aware of this but inserting them cause we have holes is premature

It's part and parcel with development....it's not always sunshine and lollipops. Not every prospect is Crosby or Kane or McDavid.

Some guys need to struggle and adapt and if they have enough minutes in the NHL and they're progressing, there's no need to send them to the AHL.

I vividly recall PK Subban having his fair share of struggles his first full year...but you know what? He persevered and fought through it, same with Price, same with Gallagher and same with Pacioretty. It's part of the process.

If you're expectation is that kids should be perfect and not ever struggle or make mistakes in the NHL...then you may as well resign yourself to accepting that all prospects will spend an eternity in the AHL.

Players in the AHL are big too, they're strong too and actually, often target high picks so there's also a risk factor there.

Time and space in the AHL, is not indicative of time and space in the NHL....it's not an accurate representation of what the NHL game is.

 

[Habs Halifax]

The point i'm making is I don't think spending 1 season or in many cases, less then a full year...is what makes or breaks prospects.

At the end of the day, what's important when it comes to young players is for them to play....when the NHL can't provide that opportunity, I agree...AHL is the way to go.

But it's not a must with every prospect and I hate that people always want to see them sent down whenever they struggle.


It's part and parcel with development....it's not always sunshine and lollipops. Not every prospect is Crosby or Kane or McDavid.

Some guys need to struggle and adapt and if they have enough minutes in the NHL and they're progressing, there's no need to send them to the AHL.

players in the AHL are big too, they're strong too and actually, often target high picks so there's also a risk factor there.

Time and space in the AHL, is not indicative of time and space in the NHL....it's not an accurate representation of what the NHL game is.

I get it. You are OK with development in the NHL and just let them figure it out as they go threw growing pains. I don't think we are going to ruin them cause they will turn into who they are eventually. However, I value positive progression and letting their confidence slip is risky. Why take the risk?

 

[417]

I get it. You are OK with development in the NHL and just let them figure it out as they go threw growing pains. I don't think we are going to ruin them cause they will turn into who they are eventually. However, I value positive progression and letting their confidence slip is risky. Why take the risk?

As long as they have ice time and a role...

Yes I'm absolutely fine with that

 

[Habs Halifax]

As long as they have ice time and a role...

Yes I'm absolutely fine with that

We will see how it all looks when we look back in a few years.

 

[ahmedou]

What I'm going to tell happened during his early stages. Like weeks after been drafted. So once KK went to the dressing room. Then the head coach ran into him and asked this question: "what's your name?" It was their first official meeting...

PS: It's an 1909% real fact.

 

[Archijerej]

There's nothing that indicates to me that Kotkaniemi isn't coachable.

But if love to hear your perspective if you think otherwise (no sarcasm)

I don't think he's not coachable, quite the contrary, he comes across as somewhat of a student of the game. What's crucial in his case is that he started his NHL career at an earlier stage of physical development than the players you mentioned. In a way, his case is similar to Galchenyuk's in that you see flashes of talent, but simultaneously it's apparent how raw they are. He eventually will be a much better player than Galchenyuk because he has a clearly above average hockey sense and is already a decent defensive player. But I think he's a project in a sense that his overall development is closely related to his physical maturity , much more closely than many other prospects. I think he will thrive at slowing the game down, but the puck protection skills required for that kind of game are not there yet. I'm a fan of his.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Re: conservative development @TooLegitToQuit

I think the Habs have been extremely conservative with pretty much every prospect they've had over the years.

The only ones they haven't are Subban, Gallagher and Price.

And I'd say that worked out pretty well.

You pick a guy 3rd overall not to be conservative but because you expect him to make an impact sooner rather then later.

They were safe with Kotkaniemi last year...time to move on to the next stage now.

Amp it up...he can handle a bit more.

Subban took his spot convincingly.

And you must not remember the Halak vs. Price debates (either pre or post Halak breakout) or the Gallagher is just a 3rd liner with no shot takes. Both took a lot of time and had setbacks.

Kotkaniemi is being brought along as his performance and team depth dictates.

-He's not getting used on the PK because he's not that good on face-offs right now and Julien has centers he trusts more.

-He was Montreal's 6th most used forward on the PP last year and he'll get plenty of looks there this year.

-He's playing with good players at ES in relatively sheltered minutes.

-Julien is REALLY spreading the minutes out at ES so far this year. The ES TOI/GP difference between the most used center on the team (Domi) and Kotkanimei is 52 seconds.

I get the "[y]ou pick a guy 3rd overall not to be conservative but because you expect him to make an impact sooner rather then later" logic, but not every player makes an impact immediately. Most don't. Kotkaniemi is still a 19 year old work in progress. He's the 5th youngest player in the NHL.

 

[417]

I don't think he's not coachable, quite the contrary, he comes across as somewhat of a student of the game. What's crucial in his case is that he started his NHL career at an earlier stage of physical development than the players you mentioned. In a way, his case is similar to Galchenyuk's in that you see flashes of talent, but simultaneously it's apparent how raw they are. He eventually will be a much better player than Galchenyuk because he has a clearly above average hockey sense and is already a decent defensive player. But I think he's a project in a sense that his overall development is closely related to his physical progress, much more closely than many other prospects. I think he will thrive at slowing the game down, but the puck protection skills required for that kind of game are not there yet. I'm a fan of his.

Agreed...but that will come with time, it still shouldn't mean IMO, that he should be sent down to the AHL or not be given any role to help him to continue to progress in the meantime.

I think fans/media just have to accept the fact that at this stage of the game, he's not going to be a PPG player...but that doesn't mean he won't eventually be or that he's a bust.

The experience he's gaining right now will prove invaluable down the line when his body catches up.

 

[LaP]

Cant wait till the KK thread falls to the 10th page like the Gally page because hes so good theres nothing to say about him.

I said it often people come here to vent. When the team is good and playing real good 200 feet hockey people watch the game and go to bed after with their belly full of good stuffs. People come here when the team is not winning.

Lately some guys keep saying how great the team plays. I think the team plays some exciting offensive hockey but overall the defense is crap and the overall game is not that good. Our team is kind of unidimensional and there's not much hope it will work against talented and structured teams as we are a one trick pony.

Outside of Drouin and Domi it's crush the net and hope for the best hockey. The last 4 years i have a hard time watching a full game. if i try most of the time i end up here posting about how bad we are. Why? Because it's actually more fun than watching the damn games.

 

[417]

Subban took his spot convincingly.

And you must not remember the Halak vs. Price debates (either pre or post Halak breakout) or the Gallagher is just a 3rd liner with no shot takes. Both took a lot of time and had setbacks.

So did Subban...that's a part of development.

Kotkaniemi is being brought along as his performance and team depth dictates.

-He's not getting used on the PK because he's not that good on face-offs right now and Julien has centers he trusts more.

-He was Montreal's 6th most used forward on the PP last year and he'll get plenty of looks there this year.

-He's playing with good players at ES in relatively sheltered minutes.

-Julien is REALLY spreading the minutes out at ES so far this year. The ES TOI/GP difference between the most used center on the team (Domi) and Kotkanimei is 52 seconds.

I don't think i'm asking for him to take over Danault's role and responsibilities.

I would just like to see his role progress from what it was last year. I mean, how can he go from 6th most used forward on the PP last year to not being used at all, when the talent level on this roster wasn't significantly upgraded.

He needs to be gradually be given more responsibilities as the year goes along...right now were 5-6 games in, not a big issue, but his usage isn't trending up and I really don't think it's got anything to do with his performance because he's barely been placed in a position to succeed in comparison with every other forward on this roster.

This is CJ's challenge right now...find him a role.

I get the "[y]ou pick a guy 3rd overall not to be conservative but because you expect him to make an impact sooner rather then later" logic, but not every player makes an impact immediately. Most don't. Kotkaniemi is still a 19 year old work in progress. He's the 5th youngest player in the NHL.

Once again...I understand all of this, I have never advocated for him to be the most used forward on the team.

I'd just like him to be more then just a jersey filler that he is currently. His biggest role on this team currently, other then taking his regular shift, is to be the designated penalty guy when they get a too many men call.

That's just not good enough.

Find him a role on the PP, use him during 3 on 3's...make him be the extra forward on a delayed penalty.

When you're down a couple of goals like you were last game...instead of shifting Kotkaniemi over to the wing on the 4th.

Shift him on the wing on the top line...

The coach will go through tons of other trials...but it's never occured to him that Kotkaniemi just might have more to offer.

 

[TheGoalJudge]

The even strength ice time distribution among our C's is actually quite favourable to Kotkaniemi IMO. I don't think he's as good as either of the C's ahead of him and yet the ice time is almost even.

Domi 13:19
Danault 13:05
Kotkaniemi 12:50
Thompson 11:30

I don't think he's ready to kill penalties so that argument is a non-starter for me. If you look at the PP minutes distribution, maybe too many go to Danault or Suzuki.

If you want Kotkaniemi to play more, I think the only logical arguments are that he should get more PP time *or* that all 3 C's should have their even strength ice-time raised so it would look like this maybe:

Domi 14:30
Danault 14:00
Kotkaniemi 13:50

 

[Captain Mountain]

So did Subban...that's a part of development.


I don't think i'm asking for him to take over Danault's role and responsibilities.

I would just like to see his role progress from what it was last year. I mean, how can he go from 6th most used forward on the PP last year to not being used at all, when the talent level on this roster wasn't significantly upgraded.

He needs to be gradually be given more responsibilities as the year goes along...right now were 5-6 games in, not a big issue, but his usage isn't trending up and I really don't think it's got anything to do with his performance because he's barely been placed in a position to succeed in comparison with every other forward on this roster.

This is CJ's challenge right now...find him a role.


Once again...I understand all of this, I have never advocated for him to be the most used forward on the team.

I'd just like him to be more then just a jersey filler that he is currently. His biggest role on this team currently, other then taking his regular shift, is to be the designated penalty guy when they get a too many men call.

That's just not good enough.

Find him a role on the PP, use him during 3 on 3's...make him be the extra forward on a delayed penalty.

When you're down a couple of goals like you were last game...instead of shifting Kotkaniemi over to the wing on the 4th.

Shift him on the wing on the top line...

The coach will go through tons of other trials...but it's never occured to him that Kotkaniemi just might have more to offer.

His ES usage is up. And I'm not that worried on about the PP thing, the first unit is still garbage and the 2nd unit is hot. I expect he'll be tried on the first unit sooner rather than later. Its up to him to seize a role on the PP or PK. And again, he's young and its a long season.

 

[Takeru]

Question 1: how do we progress as a team if KK doesnt become a top C for us?

If no answer for question 1, question 2 becomes how to get him there?

Should be an absolute priority for mgmt.

Is it by playing 3rd line minutes? Seems doubtful.

Is there room for him as a center on the top two lines? Logically yes, but otherwise, would he be better served playing top minutes in Laval.

As mentionned by others, développement strategy seems to use prospects to fill present holes, and hope they become what we need somewhere in the process, rather than coherently grooming them for the envisionned potential.

This has to stop