Player Discussion Jesperi Kotkaniemi (Part 12)

[Takeru]

The even strength ice time distribution among our C's is actually quite favourable to Kotkaniemi IMO. I don't think he's as good as either of the C's ahead of him and yet the ice time is almost even.

Domi 13:19
Danault 13:05
Kotkaniemi 12:50
Thompson 11:30

I don't think he's ready to kill penalties so that argument is a non-starter for me. If you look at the PP minutes distribution, maybe too many go to Danault or Suzuki.

If you want Kotkaniemi to play more, I think the only logical arguments are that he should get more PP time *or* that all 3 C's should have their even strength ice-time raised so it would look like this maybe:

Domi 14:30
Danault 14:00
Kotkaniemi 13:50

Get him some PP time asap.

Absolutely no reason to leave him out of it with the squad we have.

 

[dinodebino]

The KK case is a case of a GM not on the same page as his coach. It happens often in pro sports. Usually doesn't end well for said coach.

GM wants to have youth in lineup and play. Wants to develop, has no plan to win now.

Coach wants to win now. Doesn't give a rat's ass about developing. Is getting paid to win games, or so he says.

Yesterday's outburst by Dauterive was essentially that.

Now if they continue to lose, let's see how long he lasts.

 

[angusyoung]

He either plays alot, or send him down to Laval where he can play alot.

At this stage, he should be playing alot of time.

What constitutes a lot? and more than PD and Domi?

 

[Mrb1p]

What constitutes a lot? and more than PD and Domi?

More than ten minutes a night.

Essentialy all problems would disappear if he got a regular shift on the PP instead of Weal.

See Suzuki.

 

[Censored Toad]

What constitutes a lot? and more than PD and Domi?

Nearly top line minutes.

If he can't play against the big lines send him down so he can dominate the AHL and come up when hes ready,

 

[TheGoalJudge]

I'm trying to imagine the inferno on this forum if the 3rd best C in the organization was playing in the AHL and Thompson was on the 3rd line.

 

[Takeru]

I'm trying to imagine the inferno on this forum if the 3rd best C in the organization was playing in the AHL and Thompson was on the 3rd line.

I actually think there would be fewer complaints since

a) it would show a plan/commitment towards developing his potential rather than the current « win now and who gives a damn about developmental approach »

b) people aren’t satisfied with him remaining as the 3rd best C. Our futur lives or dies with him, use him accordingly, whether in the nhl or ahl until he gets to his potential.

 

[G0bias]

I'm trying to imagine the inferno on this forum if the 3rd best C in the organization was playing in the AHL and Thompson was on the 3rd line.

Thompson is already playing 3rd line minutes.

 

[Doc McKenna]

Get him some PP time asap.

Absolutely no reason to leave him out of it with the squad we have.

But Weal and Dan-o are on the PP they have provided so much!

 

[angusyoung]

More than ten minutes a night.

Essentialy all problems would disappear if he got a regular shift on the PP instead of Weal.

See Suzuki.

Might see that this game. Weal out opens a role and speed shouldn't be a concern.

 

[Mrb1p]

I'm trying to imagine the inferno on this forum if the 3rd best C in the organization was playing in the AHL and Thompson was on the 3rd line.

Thompson is already on the third line my guy

 

[Doc McKenna]

I actually think there would be fewer complaints since

a) it would show a plan/commitment towards developing his potential rather than the current « win now and who gives a damn about developmental approach »

b) people aren’t satisfied with him remaining as the 3rd best C. Our futur lives or dies with him, use him accordingly, whether in the nhl or ahl until he gets to his potential.

Or use him in a trade to upgrade our centre position. All we do is sit on guys, play them in an off position, or benching them till they have no value.

 

[Tighthead]

Question 1: how do we progress as a team if KK doesnt become a top C for us?

If no answer for question 1, question 2 becomes how to get him there?

Should be an absolute priority for mgmt.

Is it by playing 3rd line minutes? Seems doubtful.

Is there room for him as a center on the top two lines? Logically yes, but otherwise, would he be better served playing top minutes in Laval.

As mentionned by others, développement strategy seems to use prospects to fill present holes, and hope they become what we need somewhere in the process, rather than coherently grooming them for the envisionned potential.

This has to stop

And people say it is about winning games - but if you can't focus on building your best possible team because every game is a white knuckle grind for a playoff spot, I am not sure playoffs should be the priority.

 

[yianik]

This is typical of the defensive minded be all and end all coaches we hire.

JM slaps Darche on the top 6 or PP , whatever it was, MT has Vanek on the 4th line post season when we cant score, and here is the latest, Julien.

Get a coach who thinks beyond the next 5 minutes. We have a ton of young talent and need a coach who can develop them.

Ship Kotkaniemi to the AHL and let him play with abandon.

 

[Takeru]

But Weal and Dan-o are on the PP they have provided so much!

Dear me, how could this slip my mind.

Or use him in a trade to upgrade our centre position. All we do is sit on guys, play them in an off position, or benching them till they have no value.

It’s called development, you just don’t get it, silly you.

 

[TheGoalJudge]

Thompson is already on the third line my guy

Well then we have bigger problems because that would mean Drouin is a 4th liner.

 

[angusyoung]

I'm trying to imagine the inferno on this forum if the 3rd best C in the organization was playing in the AHL and Thompson was on the 3rd line.

 

[DangerDave]

More than ten minutes a night.

Essentialy all problems would disappear if he got a regular shift on the PP instead of Weal.

See Suzuki.

Put KK in Domi's spot and I could see that being a pretty good unit. 3 shooting threats that can move the puck well is usually a winning combination

 

[Captain Mountain]

Thompson is already on the third line my guy

Wow, its kind of weird that the 3rd line plays less than the 4th line then. Like, I know Julien has shuffled lines, but the fact that Drouin (3rd highest ES TOI/GP per forwards), Kotkaniemi (6th highest ES TOI/GP per forwards) and Armia (7th highest ES TOI/GP per forwards) is somehow the 4th line is impressive.

Meanwhile Thompson (2nd lowest ES TOI/GP per forwards) is actually centering the 3rd line. Incredible. Julien has managed to bend the laws of space and time.

 

[ZUKI]

Wow, its kind of weird that the 3rd line plays less than the 4th line then. Like, I know Julien has shuffled lines, but the fact that Drouin (3rd highest ES TOI/GP per forwards), Kotkaniemi (6th highest ES TOI/GP per forwards) and Armia (7th highest ES TOI/GP per forwards) is somehow the 4th line is impressive.

Meanwhile Thompson (2nd lowest ES TOI/GP per forwards) is actually centering the 3rd line. Incredible. Julien has managed to bend the laws of space and time.

thanks to clarify the situation . Julien is a time spaceman

 

[Mrb1p]

Wow, its kind of weird that the 3rd line plays less than the 4th line then. Like, I know Julien has shuffled lines, but the fact that Drouin (3rd highest ES TOI/GP per forwards), Kotkaniemi (6th highest ES TOI/GP per forwards) and Armia (7th highest ES TOI/GP per forwards) is somehow the 4th line is impressive.

Meanwhile Thompson (2nd lowest ES TOI/GP per forwards) is actually centering the 3rd line. Incredible. Julien has managed to bend the laws of space and time.

Where does it end up in actual toi?

 

[ArsHabs]

There's nothing that indicates to me that Kotkaniemi isn't coachable.

But if love to hear your perspective if you think otherwise (no sarcasm)

I agree. By all accounts Kotkaniemi is very coachable. I remember a story last year where KK struggled at faceoffs and Plekanec spent like an hour after practice with him. Next game, he was over 50% in the circle.

That’s one story I remember anyways. Otherwise, he was improving at a crazy rate last season and while talent has a lot to do with it, he must have listened to his coaches also.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Where does it end up in actual toi?

We're talking about 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th lines, right?

That only has meaning at ES. Special team units are constructed differently.

Yes, Kotkaniemi should at least be getting some time in the PP. Given how god-awful the first unit has been, he'll probably get some time there.

Yes Thompson gets heavy minutes on the PK. Its because his value is on the defensive side and he's been Montreal's best center at face-offs this season (which is damning with faint praise).

That doesn't mean Thompson is the 3rd line center. It means he plays on the PK a lot and Kotkaniemi hasn't really played on special teams.

 

[Mrb1p]

We're talking about 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th lines, right?

That only has meaning at ES. Special team units are constructed differently.

Yes, Kotkaniemi should at least be getting some time in the PP. Given how god-awful the first unit has been, he'll probably get some time there.

Yes Thompson gets heavy minutes on the PK. Its because his value is on the defensive side and he's been Montreal's best center at face-offs this season (which is damning with faint praise).

That doesn't mean Thompson is the 3rd line center. It means he plays on the PK a lot and Kotkaniemi hasn't really played on special teams.

It means hes the third most used center on the team.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I really don't understand this...

He seems like a coachable player. He's strong defensively (incredibly so for such a young player) and he was fantatstic for us last year until he got inexplicably benched. Now he's perpetually in the doghouse.

WTF????