Jesperi Kotkaniemi 3 points in 11 games

[Finlandia WOAT]

I still dont see the problem.

Maybe its that people overvalue draft picks. A first in Carolinas range wouldnt be better than KK, and KK has a higher ceiling

What it really is is the value of a full season of Kotkaniemi vs what they might get at the deadline for the 1st/3rd. The cap space is irrelevant: the team was trying to use that to add a top 9 forward, and they struck out on Saad and couldn't make Tarasenko work. Kotkaniemi was the backup plan to the backup plan to the backup plan.

Personally, I find the "maybe you could get better value at the deadline!" to be a weak argument. For one, deadline deals commonly bust- See Foligno and Kaberle, for two, you're talking about a player who will play a fourth of the games as Kotkaniemi would, a disparity that is routinely undervalued in this discussion.

 

[kp61c]

It is all right as long as "he does all the little things right".
Don't understand why everyone is sure he will sign with the jerks long-term in the offseason. He will be an UFA after all

 

[Mr Positive]

What it really is is the value of a full season of Kotkaniemi vs what they might get at the deadline for the 1st/3rd. The cap space is irrelevant: the team was trying to use that to add a top 9 forward, and they struck out on Saad and couldn't make Tarasenko work. Kotkaniemi was the backup plan to the backup plan to the backup plan.

Personally, I find the "maybe you could get better value at the deadline!" to be a weak argument. For one, deadline deals commonly bust- See Foligno and Kaberle, for two, you're talking about a player who will play a fourth of the games as Kotkaniemi would, a disparity that is routinely undervalued in this discussion.

plus, if there is a deadline move you want to make, you can always find other assets than the ones used on KK, and if you spend more, you can make moves like Toronto and Tampa did and have other teams eat up the cap space.

And sure, it would be easier to make those moves if you never got KK, but then this all goes back in circles about whether you believe that KK is worthwhile or not. To that, I don't we can know yet, but I definitely think it is smart to take on projects like this.

Like for instance, on the Oilers, would it have been smart to take the popular opinion (or rather, cynical opinion) that Puljujarvi was a bust who wasn't going to pan out? Or, to have some faith that he was drafted that highly for a reason and draw it out a bit more? So, obviously you know my answer

 

[Jee]

my main problem with KK was his balance, has he improved it ?

 

[LakeLivin]

Season is still short, but he's obviously not doing so well. Knowing that, why would KK not wait for the team to qualify him at the same price instead of signing an extension that will most likely be lowballed considering his production ?

Ok, I'm going to give you an honest answer instead of being snide even though that's the temptation given that all of this has been covered multiple times in the other thread.

There's almost zero chance the Canes qualify KK @$6.1m and I think most people realize that, including KK and his agent. Consider him in essence a UFA, which is what I'm sure the Canes are doing.

Your next question is probably: why would the Canes do that? At worst they get him as a rental for a full year. But there's also the long game; Canes have seen players that have been rushed into the NHL too early break out years after they first came into the league (think Elias Lindholm). Even though KK is in essence a UFA, Canes get 6 months exclusive access to negotiate a reasonable contract. And make no mistake about it, this front office won't overpay going forward, as demonstrated by numerous recent negotiations.

And your next question is probably: why would KK consider a "reasonable" Canes offer instead of maximizing his $ as a UFA? Presumably there's some good will stemming from the offer sheet. Not only did the Canes get KK out of what from his perspective was a shitty situation in Montreal, they gave him a multi-million dollar "bonus" this year in the process (everybody, including KK, knows he's not worth $6.1m). Regardless of how he does this season, no doubt he could get a higher dollar offer from a team other than what the Canes will offer him. But that will probably be limited to lower tier teams not in the same category as Carolina from a playing perspective. Canes are young and look to be very Cup competitive for years to come. From all accounts Brind'Amour is a coach his players love to play for. And from all accounts it's a very tight group, with very good leadership from players like Staal, Slavin, Aho, etc., as well as a core group of Finns that might make KK feel at home.

Yes there are a number of things that could go wrong such that the move won't pay off for the Canes. But the front office did the risk/ reward calculations and came to the conclusion that it was worth a shot. Based on The Committee's moves so far, I'm pretty comfortable with going with it's decision. And as Dundon said, if it doesn't work out all he really loses is some of his money, which he's willing to risk.

Anyways, hopes this clears up what is most likely the Canes perspective.

edit: like him or not, Dundon is a smart guy. I have little doubt that taking a jab at Montreal was a bonus for him, but I doubt it was the primary reason for the move.

 

[Cardiac Jerks]

Hmm, it’s almost like he wasn’t worth that 6 million dollar deal…

Who could have foreseen that?

Everyone?

Go back and find where anyone has ever said he’s worth $6.1 mil. I’ll wait.

 

[CupcakeSprinkles]

Everyone?

Go back and find where anyone has ever said he’s worth $6.1 mil. I’ll wait.

Ya really only non-hockey fans think they paid him for the money bc that's his value LOL

 

[LakeLivin]

It was a petty revenge signing by Tom Dundon... plain and simple.
It gives you huge insight into the man's character.
People were laughing at him when he made the deal and even more so now.

Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

Some people were laughing at him when he first bought the team and put together a "committee" instead of going with the traditional hierarchical GM structure. But after missing the playoffs for 9 straight years the Canes have made it for 3 years in a row and look to be legitimate Cup contenders for the immediate future. So tell me again, who's laughing now?

 

[Rubi]

I hate to break this to you, but the laughter at the time of the offer sheet wasn't aimed at Dundon.

You may want to believe that people were laughing with Dundon but they were in fact laughing at him. The majority of the hockey world, sans a few dyed in the wool Canes fans such as yourself, knew it was a huge over payment in both salary and draft picks. It was a terrible waste of resources and the Canes, but for Dundon's childish hurt ego, could have put that $6.1M and 1st and 3rd round picks towards obtaining Eichel.
But go ahead... believe what you want.. or at least publicly profess to believe it to save face I guess.

 

[Not The One]

And your next question is probably: why would KK consider a "reasonable" Canes offer instead of maximizing his $ as a UFA? Presumably there's some good will stemming from the offer sheet. Not only did the Canes get KK out of what from his perspective was a shitty situation in Montreal, they gave him a multi-million dollar "bonus" this year in the process (everybody, including KK, knows he's not worth $6.1m). Regardless of how he does this season, no doubt he could get a higher dollar offer from a team other than what the Canes will offer him. But that will probably be limited to lower tier teams not in the same category as Carolina from a playing perspective. Canes are young and look to be very Cup competitive for years to come. From all accounts Brind'Amour is a coach his players love to play for. And from all accounts it's a very tight group, with very good leadership from players like Staal, Slavin, Aho, etc., as well as a core group of Finns that might make KK feel at home.

By all accounts his "problem" with Montreal was that he felt he didn't get enough stability or playing time and that he was a healthy scratch for four games (out of 23) in the playoffs. And this is a 21 year old who now has now played in 29 playoff games and a cup final, which most players never even get. McDavid is three years older and has played in 8 playoff games less than KK.

Now he's in a team that is doing great (for now) but he's playing out of position. He has been all over the lineup in 11 games playing 2 minutes less per game than he did in Montreal. Barring injuries he's slated to stay on the 3rd line and there is probably zero chance he breaks out offensively from there. Did he get his money? Yeah. Did he get anything else he was looking for? Doesn't look like it. You expect him to be grateful for that?

 

[Rubi]

Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

Some people were laughing at him when he first bought the team and put together a "committee" instead of going with the traditional hierarchical GM structure. But after missing the playoffs for 9 straight years the Canes have made it for 3 years in a row and look to be legitimate Cup contenders for the immediate future. So tell me again, who's laughing now?

Ah yes.. the old you're too stupid to understand and the Canes and Dundon are smarter than everyone else defense.
The Canes current performance has nothing to do with the KK signing. Despite all the good things the Canes have done, the KK offer sheet at a cost of $6.1M and a 1st and a 3rd draft pick was a stupid move and a mistake and everyone sans Canes fans know it. But go ahead... pretend it wasn't if it helps you hold your head up a little higher.

 

[Rubi]

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see KK walk as a UFA next year. The Canes won't qualify him at $6M and if they do try to sign him for what he's worth (about $1M) he'll probably say no thanks and take his chance on the UFA market. What a waste of a 1st and 3rd round pick in 2022.

 

[ninetyeight]

my main problem with KK was his balance, has he improved it ?

He's definitely improved his bank balance...

 

[Blueline Bomber]

You may want to believe that people were laughing with Dundon but they were in fact laughing at him. The majority of the hockey world, sans a few dyed in the wool Canes fans such as yourself, knew it was a huge over payment in both salary and draft picks. It was a terrible waste of resources and the Canes, but for Dundon's childish hurt ego, could have put that $6.1M and 1st and 3rd round picks towards obtaining Eichel.
But go ahead... believe what you want.. or at least publicly profess to believe it to save face I guess.

Oh, no one's denying that it was an overpayment for KK. Most people also realized that in order to make an offer sheet successful (or at least, difficult to match), an overpayment is necessary. Somehow, that must have escaped you.

As far as the laughter goes, I think most people (myself included) were laughing at the absurdity of the situation. The level of pettiness both sides have shown during this whole saga is something you rarely see from ownership, which makes it hilarious. They're billionaires fighting with amounts of money most of us won't see in a lifetime, using a professional sporting league as an outlet. That's good stuff.

And try as you might, there's no denying some of the shots taken by the Canes social media during this saga are also, objectively, funny as hell. It would have been really great if the Habs fired back once in a while, but outside of an unconfirmed report about a number of preseason games (which was found to be pre-approved anyway), there's been no response. Disappointing.

 

[Sky04]

Too bad the Canes have him locked up long term for that huge cap hit...

No they don't, all they have to do is not qualify him. No one in UFA will pay him that amount either so the Canes can still sign him to a long term deal at a lower caphit unless he wants to gamble an another 1 year contract.

 

[nbwingsfan]

You hang on to the assets and wait?

So you lay it on a hope and a prayer that someone better comes along? If KK hits his usual ~40pt pace then that’s pretty much the going rate they paid for a rental at the deadline. At least KK is still incredibly young and has potential vs paying a 1st for 16 bad games from a 36 year old Foligno for example

 

[chauron]

Shouldn't you focus on your own problems? Kind of stupid to spend energy on exes

 

[Lurk Muller]

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see KK walk as a UFA next year. The Canes won't qualify him at $6M and if they do try to sign him for what he's worth (about $1M) he'll probably say no thanks and take his chance on the UFA market. What a waste of a 1st and 3rd round pick in 2022.

Rubi, are you sure about a late first and third holding more value than Kotka?

I just took 30 seconds to look into draft pick probabilities and I think I would have to disagree with you.

 

[Frank Drebin]

So you lay it on a hope and a prayer that someone better comes along? If KK hits his usual ~40pt pace then that’s pretty much the going rate they paid for a rental at the deadline. At least KK is still incredibly young and has potential vs paying a 1st for 16 bad games from a 36 year old Foligno for example

You'd be happy if your wings paid that price then?

 

[Telos]

It is what it is, there is always going to be back and forth about him because of how he was acquired. When combined with Montreal fans not having anything better to do and his lower stat numbers at the moment there will be lots of discussion. In the end though, he is still 21 years old... It is way too early to be like this guy is bottom 6 only, etc...

 

[Rubi]

Rubi, are you sure about a late first and third holding more value than Kotka?

I just took 30 seconds to look into draft pick probabilities and I think I would have to disagree with you.

The 2022 draft is purported to be a very deep draft. Picking in the late 1st round will likely get you a quality d-man.

 

[Not The One]

So you lay it on a hope and a prayer that someone better comes along? If KK hits his usual ~40pt pace then that’s pretty much the going rate they paid for a rental at the deadline. At least KK is still incredibly young and has potential vs paying a 1st for 16 bad games from a 36 year old Foligno for example

Forget his age and his draft position. None of that matters because KK can leave as a UFA if he wishes. Forget even the 6M pricetag.

Are these the stats of a player you would give up a 1st and a 3rd for as a rental? He doesn't play on the PK, has little experience and no leadership intangibles and may or may not be able to play at C.

Also, he ended his first season with 2 points in 14 games. his second season with 1 point in 12 games and his 3rd season with 1 point in 19 games so... he's not going to help much down the stretch.

 

[TheFinalWord]

Ah yes.. the old you're too stupid to understand and the Canes and Dundon are smarter than everyone else defense.
The Canes current performance has nothing to do with the KK signing. Despite all the good things the Canes have done, the KK offer sheet at a cost of $6.1M and a 1st and a 3rd draft pick was a stupid move and a mistake and everyone sans Canes fans know it. But go ahead... pretend it wasn't if it helps you hold your head up a little higher.

We'll see if the rumours about a long-term deal already being agreed upon are true. If not, and he doesn't sign for less than the qualifying offer and walks, then it was a bad move by the Canes (unless he's a significant part of a cup win, and then it doesn't matter). Was the Dvorak move any smarter?

 

[Jee]

Shouldn't you focus on your own problems? Kind of stupid to spend energy on exes

yawn. can't discuss nhl things on an nhl forums.

 

[Rubi]

We'll see if the rumours about a long-term deal already being agreed upon are true. If not, and he doesn't sign for less than the qualifying offer and walks, then it was a bad move by the Canes (unless he's a significant part of a cup win, and then it doesn't matter). Was the Dvorak move any smarter?

The smart move would have been to swallow your injured pride and hold on to that $6M in cap space as well as the 1st and 3rd draft picks and make a competitive offer for Jack Eichel. The Canes were reported to be in the bidding for Eichel... their offer just wasn't good enough. That $6M in cap space and those two draft pics could have gone a long way towards changing that.
Imagine having Eichel in the lineup as one of your centers instead of Kotkaniemi.