Sportsnet: Jeremy Roenick says it how it is/about leafs

[BraveCanadian]

At least Dion showed a pulse, that's more than can be said for the rest of this team (Clarkson/Polak being exceptions).

I'll give him that. Something that this team is sorely lacking.

 

[Antropovsky]

Team played better after he layed out the Staal brothers. The Leafs played better after he started beating on Michalek for the spear to the nuts he took. Mind you the top line still coasted and did nothing.

I said it before but the "offensive forwards" on this team only respond to Kessel and Kessel does not get pumped up over hits, fights or anything other than if he scored a goal or not so the other forwards just sit back and wait for Kessel to get hot so they can ride his coattails. Thats the issue with the top line.

I don't know how many defensemen can put a team on there backs and take them to victory. The position in itself doesn't exactly lend itself to be that impact-full unless your team utilizes its defensemen to there strengths like Calgary used to do with Dion or how Montreal, Nashville use there defensemen. As it stands the Leafs offense goes through Kessel and the points are heavily covered because of the lack of a down low threat so if there Defensemen do get pucks through there is no net presence for tips or rebounds. How is a defensmen supposed to carry a team to victory when the team does not put them in a position to affect the scoresheet positively?

Maybe a different type of offensive defensemen could do that for this team but Phaneuf has never created his offense by rushing the puck or skating circles into the offensive zone and then slipping one by the goalie like Gardiner could or Pietroangelo can. Phaneuf gets his offense off of a teams strong cycle game and they get the puck to him for a point shot or better yet one timer while the forwards drive the net, that is how defensemen with his skill set score goals and make an impact offensively. Weber and Subban would not score as many goals nor have as great of an impact on the outcome of a game if they where playing for the Leafs because the Leafs system would essentially neuter them offensively by not utilizing there best strengths which is their ability to shoot the puck. Its the same with Phaneuf.

Phaneufs offensive strengths do not fit with this teams offensive game. But because you need the other threat on the PP you keep Dion there hoping it frees up space for Kessel which it no longer does. Why the **** the Leafs management cant figure this out is beyond me.

Its either utilized Phaneufs strengths which means changing the offensive game of the club or you trade him for an asset that can help the team play the way they like to play. Rush loser hockey. It is a lot cheaper cap wise to have a defensive defenseman shut down the opposition and have your offensive defenseman insulated but placed in offensive roles ala Jake Gardiner. bleh Unless you can find another Doughty, Peitro, Keith kicking around somewhere.

Where was this physical play when it mattered most? Look back at my older posts about Dion and you'll notice that I said that when he plays physical and stirs the opposition, that is when he can be a difference maker. Problem was, until the last couple games, he rarely played physical, he skated away from more fights than he skated into.

Now that his leadership is being heavily scrutinized, and his cushy job as the Captain of the most popular nhl franchise in the world is in doubt... he's going out of his way to try and make a difference. Problem is it's too little too late, the wheels have already fallen off long ago, his team isn't responding. He is being judged on his play during the majority of his tenure in Toronto, not judged on the games where he knows he's expected to make a difference.

 

[Antropovsky]

At least Dion showed a pulse, that's more than can be said for the rest of this team (Clarkson/Polak being exceptions).

I just want to see guys like Kessel, Bozak, JVR, etc. act out of character and just lay someone out. I want them to show us that they give a damn and show a willingness to do what needs to be done and set an example going forward.

Phaneuf has showed a pulse the last couple games, but in a lot of other games he wasn't showing a pulse. We shouldn't be complimenting him (especially him considering he's the captain), or any other player for that matter, for games where they show up... again we need to be judging him on his overall season.

 

[diceman934]

I think Phaneuf cares, is doing his best, and even engaging in battles more than normal.

It is not Phaneuf's fault that he's captain, and it isn't Phaneuf's fault he has some glaring physical limitations.

Phaneuf's trouble began with Wilson making him captain.

He really shouldn't be the best defenseman on a team that wants to be a contender, however he is. That's on management not Phaneuf.

We traded our best Defensive D man, because we needed more grit....Dion could have provided it but did not.

You are correct that Dion is doing the best that he can.....and it is not worth the money we pay him...Jermey was bang on he would be a 4/5 on a good team. St Louis is a prime example....he would be no better then a 4 on that team and would have to beat out Gunnar for the 4 hole and my money would be on Gunnar.

 

[Leaf Army]

He is absolutely bang on. Kessel and Phaneuf are complimentary players being payed like franchise players where they are asked to lead this team.

This kind of thinking is where I feel everyone is missing the point. People make far too big a deal out of Kessel and Phaneuf and what they're paid.

Do people pay attention to what goes on elsewhere in the league or just the Leafs? These kinds of contracts are everywhere. Look at the last three Stanley Cup winners.


Chicago- Starting next year will be paying two players over $10 million. One of whom is Patrick Kane who is quite comparable to Kessel skill wise.

Los Angeles- Are paying Dustin Brown (8 goals) and Mike Richards (5 goals) almost $6 million a piece. Neither of whom are close to franchise players.

Boston Lucic makes $6 million. Is he a franchise player?

These are teams that won the Cup. Kessel and Phaneuf are not the problem. The problem is we don't have enough other top players to go with them. Management's top objective needs to be to get Kessel and Phaneuf more high end talent to play with. We put way too much pressure on just two players.

 

[Leaf Army]

He is absolutely bang on. Kessel and Phaneuf are complimentary players being payed like franchise players .

Further to this point I'm tired of hearing the term "complimentary player".

Every player in the league is complementary player. All of them. Hockey is a team game. No player in the league can win by themselves.

Trottier needed Bossy. Gretzky needed Messier. Lemieux needed Francis. Yzerman needed Fedorov. Sakic needed Forsberg. Crosby needs Malkin. The list goes on.

We have this mindset in Toronto that we're waiting for some hero to come along and carry the team on his back by himself. That doesn't happen. We need to stop thinking this way immediately.

We don't need to get rid of Kessel and Phaneuf. We need to get them some help.

 

[richardn]

Further to this point I'm tired of hearing the term "complimentary player".

Every player in the league is complementary player. All of them. Hockey is a team game. No player in the league can win by themselves.

Trottier needed Bossy. Gretzky needed Messier. Lemieux needed Francis. Yzerman needed Fedorov. Sakic needed Forsberg. Crosby needs Malkin. The list goes on.

We have this mindset in Toronto that we're waiting for some hero to come along and carry the team on his back by himself. That doesn't happen. We need to stop thinking this way immediately.

We don't need to get rid of Kessel and Phaneuf. We need to get them some help.

We will be waiting for a decade to get them the help they need and by the time that happens it will be to late. Don't know why people can't see that this team has zero chance to win any thing

 

[Leaf Army]

We will be waiting for a decade to get them the help they need

There's no basis for you to say that. That's a completely arbitrary statement. What magical thing is going to happen 10 years from now? Do you have a crystal ball?

 

[Confucius]

Regarding Dion, I agree with JR.

All we can do now is wait it out these next 5 or 6 years. Don't sign any UFA's, keep our picks. By all means if we can get a 1st (top 7) I'd trade Phil.

 

[Pucker77]

He scored 500 goals in his career, I think that makes him superior enough to Dion to be capable of judging the situation.

Jaromir Jagr has scored over 700 career goals andi can't remember the guys name, but Jagr said that behind Mario Lemieux the best player he ever played with was some no name Czech player.

The Penguins signed that guy for the next season and by the end of that season that guy was out of the league.

Just because you are a great hockey player doesn't mean you are great at evaluating other players talents/abilities.

 

[666]

Not only was Phaneuf a player for ALL of the recent Leafs collapses, he was on the ice for a significant portion of it and to top it off he was also the captain for all of it.

Enough is enough.

 

[Menzinger]

Every player in the league is complementary player. All of them. Hockey is a team game. No player in the league can win by themselves.

This is a very, very good point. And something more people need to understand. There isn't a single successful team in this league built around one player - it takes a collective core - it allows the individual strengths/weaknesses of those players to get evened out.

 

[Mojo19]

Hmmm... wonder who ol' JR would prefer:

Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton

or

Phil Kessel and Dion Phaneuf

 

[diceman934]

This is a very, very good point. And something more people need to understand. There isn't a single successful team in this league built around one player - it takes a collective core - it allows the individual strengths/weaknesses of those players to get evened out.

Yes and we have no core....that is the point. You do not build around seriously flawed pieces...Look at our results the last 4 seasons for proof. If we had some core pieces then we can add pieces that compliment the core...

 

[Bill Waters*]

Hmmm... wonder who ol' JR would prefer:

Tyler Seguin and Dougie Hamilton

or

Phil Kessel and Dion Phaneuf

Well who?

 

[Durkin67]

Well who?

I'll hazard a guess that JR would want a look at a third option before rendering his verdict.

 

[FerrisRox]

Kessel has been criticized every single day of his 6 years here and has had ONE noticable outburst. I dont buy he cant handle criticism.

I don't think he's referring to public outbursts when he says Kessel can't handle criticism. Kessel has 3 points in his last ten games and has been shutout in eight of those ten. That stretch corresponds to when he started taking more heat and more criticism so I suspect that is what Roenick is referring to.

 

[Hunter74]

Where was this physical play when it mattered most? Look back at my older posts about Dion and you'll notice that I said that when he plays physical and stirs the opposition, that is when he can be a difference maker. Problem was, until the last couple games, he rarely played physical, he skated away from more fights than he skated into.

Now that his leadership is being heavily scrutinized, and his cushy job as the Captain of the most popular nhl franchise in the world is in doubt... he's going out of his way to try and make a difference. Problem is it's too little too late, the wheels have already fallen off long ago, his team isn't responding. He is being judged on his play during the majority of his tenure in Toronto, not judged on the games where he knows he's expected to make a difference.

Yes he sure does seem to be more aggressive now. debate is why now and not before. I do agree it is to little too late.

 

[TML1]

At least Dion showed a pulse, that's more than can be said for the rest of this team (Clarkson/Polak being exceptions).

I just want to see guys like Kessel, Bozak, JVR, etc. act out of character and just lay someone out. I want them to show us that they give a damn and show a willingness to do what needs to be done and set an example going forward.

You'll never get that outta Kessel. He can't handle negativity as JR said.

 

[pooleboy]

Further to this point I'm tired of hearing the term "complimentary player".

Every player in the league is complementary player. All of them. Hockey is a team game. No player in the league can win by themselves.

Trottier needed Bossy. Gretzky needed Messier. Lemieux needed Francis. Yzerman needed Fedorov. Sakic needed Forsberg. Crosby needs Malkin. The list goes on.

We have this mindset in Toronto that we're waiting for some hero to come along and carry the team on his back by himself. That doesn't happen. We need to stop thinking this way immediately.

We don't need to get rid of Kessel and Phaneuf. We need to get them some help.

no. We also are already at the cap so thats "help"

Heres an example:

Toews (primary) needs kane (secondary)

We have the kane, we dont have the toews, or in your examples, gretzgy, crosby, lemiuex, yzermer

Keith needs seabrooke,

Well we have the seabrooke just not the kane (YET)

we are a cap strapped team, we cant give them any help...

 

[Stephen]

These are teams that won the Cup. Kessel and Phaneuf are not the problem. The problem is we don't have enough other top players to go with them. Management's top objective needs to be to get Kessel and Phaneuf more high end talent to play with. We put way too much pressure on just two players.

You're not being realistic at all.

How does a poorly drafting, cap maxed team with limited trade assets surround two deeply flawed and overpaid players with enough elite talent to make a go of it? It's really not possible.

The pieces that we need to carry Phaneuf and Kessel are already locked up on good teams.

The more realistic option is to turn Kessel and Phaneuf into 5 or 6 quality draft picks and prospects and blend them with whatever talent base is remaining and picks in the near future and hope to groom a winner out of that stockpile.

 

[Stephen]

These are teams that won the Cup. Kessel and Phaneuf are not the problem. The problem is we don't have enough other top players to go with them. Management's top objective needs to be to get Kessel and Phaneuf more high end talent to play with. We put way too much pressure on just two players.

Furthermore, I don't even see why you'd even put that much energy into making Kessel and Phaneuf work here. They can probably be good mercenaries elsewhere but it's like babysitting children with this core to get anything going. These guys are a pain in the ass and seem universally disliked in the hockey world. The sooner we can distance ourselves from Kessel and Phaneuf and their cronies the better.

 

[Joey24]

Minus 18 in his last 16 games.....he has been horrible....he is not a top pair D man..I said last year he was a 2-3 and dropping and he is continuing to drop.

Are you serious? how many games did they go with out scoring a goal? And only managing to score 1 - 2 in the other games.

Everyones +/- is gonna be up the ******* with team stats like that. Dion is the only one of the big payed players I would keep around. Just find someone to captain the team and lift that stress off his shoulders.

I would prefer the Dion who tries to demolish people and is more offensive minded then the passive Dion we have seen for the past couple of seasons. He's at his best when he's given the green light and not be the guy who's expected to anchor the blueline.

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

Tear it down

 

[King85Kong]

This kind of thinking is where I feel everyone is missing the point. People make far too big a deal out of Kessel and Phaneuf and what they're paid.

Do people pay attention to what goes on elsewhere in the league or just the Leafs? These kinds of contracts are everywhere. Look at the last three Stanley Cup winners.


Chicago- Starting next year will be paying two players over $10 million. One of whom is Patrick Kane who is quite comparable to Kessel skill wise.

Los Angeles- Are paying Dustin Brown (8 goals) and Mike Richards (5 goals) almost $6 million a piece. Neither of whom are close to franchise players.

Boston Lucic makes $6 million. Is he a franchise player?

These are teams that won the Cup. Kessel and Phaneuf are not the problem. The problem is we don't have enough other top players to go with them. Management's top objective needs to be to get Kessel and Phaneuf more high end talent to play with. We put way too much pressure on just two players.

Further to this point I'm tired of hearing the term "complimentary player".

Every player in the league is complementary player. All of them. Hockey is a team game. No player in the league can win by themselves.

Trottier needed Bossy. Gretzky needed Messier. Lemieux needed Francis. Yzerman needed Fedorov. Sakic needed Forsberg. Crosby needs Malkin. The list goes on.

We have this mindset in Toronto that we're waiting for some hero to come along and carry the team on his back by himself. That doesn't happen. We need to stop thinking this way immediately.

We don't need to get rid of Kessel and Phaneuf. We need to get them some help.

Two very well thought out posts.