Confirmed with Link: Jerabek to Caps for a 5th in 2019

[Belial]

Completely meaningless stats without context.

And you can't provide context.

You attribute value to arbitrary stats so long as they fit your narrative.

What in the world man?

The context only gets my point even stronger!

Drouin and Chucky are getting ~60% of starts in the offensive zone while Plekanec has the least offensive starts on the team at 41 % !

You have to be kidding me at this point!

 

[417]

That's the most underhanded compliment someone has ever paid 417.

No, its not...I've heard that one a dozen times.

The good ol' "omg I'm agreeing with 417" schtick

 

[417]

What in the world man?

The context only gets my point even stronger!

Drouin and Chucky are getting ~60% of starts in the offensive zone while Plekanec has the least offensive starts on the team at 41 % !

You have to be kidding me at this point!

Offensive and defensive zone starts also have little context.

This idea that because you take a faceoff in the offensive zone, it somehow makes it easier is weak.

Drouin is horrible on faceoffs, which mean he looses posession most of the time and has to go chasing after the puck.

Please

 

[BPD Habs Fan]

I am not a fan of the trade but I am hoping that we re-sign him in the summer. And what is it with Bergevin and 5th round picks? Was he a 5th rounder or something?

 

[Asamu]

Personally, I wasn't a big fan of Jerabek and apparently the habs didn't want to give him a full year of adaptation to the NHL.

Habs are generally good with 5th rd picks. We had Charles Hudon 122# 5th rd pick and Obviously Brendan Gallagher #147...and Dallas got Jamie Benn at #129 5th rd !

But seriously I wish him luck with the Capitals who would like to fill some holes on their blue line for short or long term.

 

[Runner77]

The Habs are getting roasted on their twitter account and it's not funny. One user brought up a Gazette piece from January 18th, where Marc Dumont wrote this:

Jerabek has adapted quite well to the NHL even if he’s been playing with subpar defensive partners and facing a relatively high quality of competition. He’s outplaying half the blue-liners, all of whom have more experience at the NHL level.

Again, this shouldn’t come as a complete surprise given that he’s been playing professional hockey since age 17 and had an impressive resumé while playing overseas, but at the very least it’s encouraging for the future of the Canadiens blue line.

The team will have to decide whether or not to re-sign the puck-moving defenceman this summer, but given the current makeup of the team and Jerabek’s start to his NHL career, offering him an extension will probably be one of the easiest decisions the front office will have to make during the offseason.

Analyze This: Numbers show Canadiens rookie Jakub Jerabek is a keeper

 

[Runner77]

And this gem ...

 

[Belial]

Offensive and defensive zone starts also have little context.

This idea that because you take a faceoff in the offensive zone, it somehow makes it easier is weak.

Drouin is horrible on faceoffs, which mean he looses posession most of the time and has to go chasing after the puck.

Please

Are you even hearing yourself?

You're trying to tell me that zone starts have no impact! Seriously?

Of course starting in the offensive zone is easier than starting in the defensive zone!Geez...

 

[vokiel]

Got a 5th for giving some KHLer an extended pro try out, not bad

 

[Slipknot]

Yeah, fire Julien right?

Not just him. All of them.

I don’t know why I’m surprised people are defending this deal, or the defense corps MB assembled, yet here I am humbled once again by certain people here.

I’m all for accumulating assets, but every single one of Schlemko, Benn, Alzner, Morrow have all been hot garbage and as far as im concerned not as good as Jerabek.

The fustrating part is that guys like Benn, Alzner, Morrow and Schlemko are far worst than Jerabek.

We are celebrating 1 full year of Jordie "Bearded but garbage" Benn.

 

[417]

And this gem ...

Well Nick Holden is a more proven NHL Dman not to mention the fact he also returned a decent prospect in Rob O'Gara.

I don't get the reference to Montoya...

If that guy wanted to shred Bergevin...he could of done much better.

 

[Belial]

Not just him. All of them.

Something tells me that you'll say the same thing in a couple of years...

Fire everyone all the time!

 

[417]

Are you even hearing yourself?

You're trying to tell me that zone starts have no impact! Seriously?

Of course starting in the offensive zone is easier than starting in the defensive zone!Geez...

No, what I'm telling you...and it's written clearly in the post you quoted.

Is that zone starts, like most stats, without context, are meaningless.

Drouin and Galchenyuk can start 100% of their shifts in the ozone...as long as Drouin keeps losing 60% of his faceoffs, it means he's chasing the puck 60% of the time, so he's actually playing Defense, IN THE OFFENSIVE ZONE.

In other words, during 60% of Drouin's offensive zone starts, he's actually playing defense!

Furthermore, zone STARTS only take into account where the play STARTS.

It does NOT take into account how the play develops AFTER the faceoff.

Drouin can START in the ozone for a faceoff, win the faceoff, it goes back to the D, he gets pressure and the puck clears the zone.

Tell me how does zone starts capture that???

Zone STARTS are just that...they measure where an events STARTS. They become worthless the moment the puck is dropped in the faceoff circle...

Zone starts do NOT determine the degree of difficulty.

 

[Slipknot]

Something tells me that you'll say the same thing in a couple of years...

Fire everyone all the time!

Well, if they are from the same god damn system that was there since the 90s ofc.

 

[Nedved]

I think some people are missing the point. Yes this could very well end up being much of nothing, another Sekac trade where posters are up in arms only to have the player out of the league in a year or two later. That's not the point though. The Habs don't seem to know what the **** they are doing. They suck. Their season has been over for some time. They should have every young player on their roster playing as much as possible. Carr, Jerabek, DLR, better to see if you have something by giving them a chance to shine or crash. Play the crap out of them, put them in good situations to succeed as they have NOTHING to lose by doing this unless you think someone would be dumb enough to overpay for guys like Alzner, Benn, Schlemko, etc...

The funny part is that they sort of did this with Morrow but they should have actually played him more since it's better to lose with Morrow, Jerabek, DLR, Carr etc.. in the lineup then Alzner, Benn, Schlemko.

Once again the Habs show an issue at the development level.

players are responsible for their development.

 

[Chili]

If you have a decision to make on account of an expiring contract leading to UFA, don't you want to play the hell out of the player to find out what he has and at worse, to showcase him? When a player is benched for 8 straight games, it doesn't exactly scream "driving up the value".

Looks like they had seen enough to decide awhile ago.

I wonder if he asked for a trade? We should hear more.

I remember having a similiar discussion on here about Rafael Diaz with someone. I wasn`t a fan of his either, some here believed he was top 4 material. It's a hard adjustment to come to the small ice surface, that far advanced in your career.

 

[BrendanGallagher11]

Why did this thread turn into drouin offensive zone starts ??
lol

 

[417]

Why did this thread turn into drouin offensive zone starts ??
lol

A debate about Plekanec somehow morphed into this thread, I've suggested to @Belial move this to another thread but he keeps responding.

Mods feel free to move the topic elsewhere.

Sorry

 

[vokiel]

I am not a fan of the trade but I am hoping that we re-sign him in the summer. And what is it with Bergevin and 5th round picks? Was he a 5th rounder or something?

If there isn't better sure. I'm pretty certain there's gonna be better including using our own prospects.

 

[ahmedou]

What a handsome love between Russians and Clode

 

[Kriss E]

No, what I'm telling you...and it's written clearly in the post you quoted.

Is that zone starts, like most stats, without context, are meaningless.

Drouin and Galchenyuk can start 100% of their shifts in the ozone...as long as Drouin keeps losing 60% of his faceoffs, it means he's chasing the puck 60% of the time, so he's actually playing Defense, IN THE OFFENSIVE ZONE.

In other words, during 60% of Drouin's offensive zone starts, he's actually playing defense!

Furthermore, zone STARTS only take into account where the play STARTS.

It does NOT take into account how the play develops AFTER the faceoff.

Drouin can START in the ozone for a faceoff, win the faceoff, it goes back to the D, he gets pressure and the puck clears the zone.

Tell me how does zone starts capture that???

Zone STARTS are just that...they measure where an events STARTS. They become worthless the moment the puck is dropped in the faceoff circle...

Zone starts do NOT determine the degree of difficulty.

@Belial's point isn't about what happens after the FOs, his point is that they are put in a better position to start. It's pretty simple. You start your shift 10 feet away from the opposing goalie vs 90 feet away. So ya, one position is obviously better to start in.
That said, it can also be true that the difference is barely noticeable. How to know this is to determine what that 20% difference in starts between Plek-Galch/Drouin represents. 2 FO?...Well then who cares. It's pointless.

In any event, Plek is done. Not sure why he's even talked about.

 

[AshyHabs]

When you get a 5th you don't ask for more

 

[417]

@Belial's point isn't about what happens after the FOs, his point is that they are put in a better position to start. It's pretty simple. You start your shift 10 feet away from the opposing goalie vs 90 feet away. So ya, one position is obviously better to start in.
That said, it can also be true that the difference is barely noticeable. How to know this is to determine what that 20% difference in starts between Plek-Galch/Drouin represents. 2 FO?...Well then who cares. It's pointless.

In any event, Plek is done. Not sure why he's even talked about.

I understand that...I'm just saying, and clearly, you agree.

That zone starts without context are meaningless other than determine who lined up for a faceoff and in what zone.

But again...this isn't the right thread to be having this discussion.

 

[lamp9post]

No, what I'm telling you...and it's written clearly in the post you quoted.

Is that zone starts, like most stats, without context, are meaningless.

Drouin and Galchenyuk can start 100% of their shifts in the ozone...as long as Drouin keeps losing 60% of his faceoffs, it means he's chasing the puck 60% of the time, so he's actually playing Defense, IN THE OFFENSIVE ZONE.

In other words, during 60% of Drouin's offensive zone starts, he's actually playing defense!

Furthermore, zone STARTS only take into account where the play STARTS.

It does NOT take into account how the play develops AFTER the faceoff.

Drouin can START in the ozone for a faceoff, win the faceoff, it goes back to the D, he gets pressure and the puck clears the zone.

Tell me how does zone starts capture that???

Zone STARTS are just that...they measure where an events STARTS. They become worthless the moment the puck is dropped in the faceoff circle...

Zone starts do NOT determine the degree of difficulty.

You're way off base here. If you lose a faceoff in the offensive zone, you can initiate a forecheck to get the puck back, or force a dump out and regain possession in the neutral zone. If you lose a faceoff in the defensive zone, then yeah, you're playing defense.

You really think they start Drouin in the offensive zone because they want him to play defense in the offensive zone? Even if so, isn't that better than having him play defense in the defensive zone?

Zone starts matter big time. Look around the league - all the top offensive players like Malkin or Tarasenko get like 70% offensive zone starts. Pretty sure they get those starts because the teams are putting them in the best position to generate offense. Zone starts absolutely do determine the degree of difficulty. Do you think Malkin/Tarasenko would score with the same frequency if they started 70% of their shifts from the defensive zone? By the same token, players that start in their zone are more likely to face the Malkin/Tarasenko's of the world e.g. face talented players who have been put in the best position to produce.

Furthermore, you have to consider icings as a factor here - who do coaches tend to put out against a tired team after an icing? Their best offensive players. Who do coaches put out when they pull the goalie with a faceoff in the offensive zone? Their best offensive players. Getting good players quality minutes in positions where they can succeed is one of the coach's primary tasks.

BTW, it is not difficult to pair zone starts with corsi to get a good picture how well players do in terms of possession given their zone starts. Guys like Gallagher and Plekanec for example do a good job of generating possession despite starting most of their shifts in the defensive zone.

 

[417]

You're way off base here. If you lose a faceoff in the offensive zone, you can initiate a forecheck to get the puck back, or force a dump out and regain possession in the neutral zone. If you lose a faceoff in the defensive zone, then yeah, you're playing defense.

You really think they start Drouin in the offensive zone because they want him to play defense in the offensive zone? Even if so, isn't that better than having him play defense in the defensive zone?

Zone starts matter big time. Look around the league - all the top offensive players like Malkin or Tarasenko get like 70% offensive zone starts. Pretty sure they get those starts because the teams are putting them in the best position to generate offense. Zone starts absolutely do determine the degree of difficulty. Do you think Malkin/Tarasenko would score with the same frequency if they started 70% of their shifts from the defensive zone? By the same token, players that start in their zone are more likely to face the Malkin/Tarasenko's of the world e.g. face talented players who have been put in the best position to produce.

Furthermore, you have to consider icings as a factor here - who do coaches tend to put out against a tired team after an icing? Their best offensive players. Who do coaches put out when they pull the goalie with a faceoff in the offensive zone? Their best offensive players. Getting good players quality minutes in positions where they can succeed is one of the coach's primary tasks.

BTW, it is not difficult to pair zone starts with corsi to get a good picture how well players do in terms of possession given their zone starts. Guys like Gallagher and Plekanec for example do a good job of generating possession despite starting most of their shifts in the defensive zone.

I think you're just proving my point - that so much can happen after a faceoff, where a play starts, really doesn't tell the whole story. And to assume that all ozone starts are so much easier than dzone starts is not a very well developed hypothesis.

Either way, would love to discuss further, but again, this is not the thread for it.