Player Discussion Jeff Gorton

[SnowblindNYR]

I can watch this style of hockey from my team all day any day

Actually you didn't get the memo? He's recruiting solely Russian players to play for the Rangers. May want to start following another team right now.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

How much does this take change if Vasi plays slightly better, and TB beats the Caps?

They got shutout the last two games was it really Vasi's fault?

 

[haveandare]

How much does this take change if Vasi plays slightly better, and TB beats the Caps?

That's part of why I don't like the idea of trying to emulate the most recent successful teams, mostly just pointing out that the model described here sounds similar to the two teams left.

Imo the fact that Vasi playing better is the most realistic route to them winning is part of the problem. Stamkos was nowhere to be found, as always in elimination games. Kucherov was good overall but was trying to force passes all game in game 7. TB lacked the appropriate level of urgency, not unlike we've seen NYR lack on the brink of elimination. That's part of "character" too. Imo maybe the most important part. Throwing yourself in front of shots is nice when necessary but if you can't play like hell when the situation arises, all the other types of character heavy traits there are don't count for much.

 

[will1066]

How much does this take change if Vasi plays slightly better, and TB beats the Caps?

For me, it doesn't change. I see TB as being a better version of us. They have players on the small side with skill and speed. Whatever you want to call this model--the Pens model--it was good for a while, but then other teams have been able to blend size and skill, like the Jets. Big + skill > small + skill.

 

[will1066]

As much as I hate the Kings and as much as I'd prefer a skill team, the Kings were advanced stat darlings despite playing exactly that way. There's more than one way to skin the Corsi cat.

I hate the way they played. It was described as death by a thousand paper cuts, which was grinding forechecking and a thousand shots from the points until submission. I'd like to see grinding forechecking combined with skilled passing plays on offense, smothering checking in the neutral zone, and zone defense that protects the front of the cage.

 

[silverfish]

I didn't make the point I wanted to the right way. Never mind.

Carry on.

 

[Nopuckluck]

Actually you didn't get the memo? He's recruiting solely Russian players to play for the Rangers. May want to start following another team right now.

Something tells me with three hard nosed no nonsense Boston area guys running the team, I don’t have to worry about a roster full of softies. Could be wrong but let’s look at the roster late next season

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

They got shutout the last two games was it really Vasi's fault?

There's more to the series than the elimination games. This is like the Rangers in 2015. Yeah, we were shut out in game 7 but Lundqvist was also to blame for us being eliminated with the soft goals he let in in games 2 and 3.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

There's more to the series than the elimination games. This is like the Rangers in 2015. Yeah, we were shut out in game 7 but Lundqvist was also to blame for us being eliminated with the soft goals he let in in games 2 and 3.

Ok, that's 2 of 4 games. Game 2 they lost 6-2. I don't he was the difference between 4 goals.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Ok, that's 2 of 4 games. Game 2 they lost 6-2. I don't he was the difference between 4 goals.

It is never that black and white.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I don't know if I'm going to like this Tampa trade, unless somehow there's a big discrepancy between what I think the outcomes will be for Sergachyov, Hajek and Howden. I just can't consider it proper value for a 1D to get back non-impact player prospects or at least ones that are unlikely to be an impact player. If I'm trading my best player and a player who is top 15 at his position, I want a young impact player coming back.

Tampa really gave nothing away in this trade. Hajek and Howden were spare parts that maybe would've played minor roles in their current core. Maybe they wouldn't have even made the team eventually because of the depth Tampa has. Yet, these were the centerpieces, two guys Tampa would have no problem throwing in. I don't know if the answer is that you walk away and don't trade McDonagh, but unless Hajek and Howden are more valuable than Sergachyov, I don't consider this a good trade. Yzerman gave up nothing of considerable value, Gorton gave up his best asset.

 

[True Blue]

Something tells me with three hard nosed no nonsense Boston area guys running the team, I don’t have to worry about a roster full of softies. Could be wrong but let’s look at the roster late next season

Nooooooooooooooo! The evidence is here right now! The results of Gorton's tear down are on full display. What a bunch of ballerinas.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

It is never that black and white.

I get it. Either way, I feel like Vasy was brought up so that silverfish wouldn't have to concede that maybe the trade wasn't the worst thing in the history of time. Mind you, it's only one playoff run. But it looks like McDonagh is on a serious decline.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

I don't know if I'm going to like this Tampa trade, unless somehow there's a big discrepancy between what I think the outcomes will be for Sergachyov, Hajek and Howden. I just can't consider it proper value for a 1D to get back non-impact player prospects or at least ones that are unlikely to be an impact player. If I'm trading my best player and a player who is top 15 at his position, I want a young impact player coming back.

Tampa really gave nothing away in this trade. Hajek and Howden were spare parts that maybe would've played minor roles in their current core. Maybe they wouldn't have even made the team eventually because of the depth Tampa has. Yet, these were the centerpieces, two guys Tampa would have no problem throwing in. I don't know if the answer is that you walk away and don't trade McDonagh, but unless Hajek and Howden are more valuable than Sergachyov, I don't consider this a good trade. Yzerman gave up nothing of considerable value, Gorton gave up his best asset.

Except maybe McDonagh isn't as good as you seem to think. I haven't watched the playoffs really this year but it doesn't sound like McDonagh was anything special. Sergachov ever being in play is a figment of your imagination it seems. Even if McDonagh is a top 15 D, why give up a promising much younger D for him, for more than 2 possible playoff runs? It makes absolutely no sense. You're just making up value based on nothing.

 

[Nopuckluck]

I don't know if I'm going to like this Tampa trade, unless somehow there's a big discrepancy between what I think the outcomes will be for Sergachyov, Hajek and Howden. I just can't consider it proper value for a 1D to get back non-impact player prospects or at least ones that are unlikely to be an impact player. If I'm trading my best player and a player who is top 15 at his position, I want a young impact player coming back.

Tampa really gave nothing away in this trade. Hajek and Howden were spare parts that maybe would've played minor roles in their current core. Maybe they wouldn't have even made the team eventually because of the depth Tampa has. Yet, these were the centerpieces, two guys Tampa would have no problem throwing in. I don't know if the answer is that you walk away and don't trade McDonagh, but unless Hajek and Howden are more valuable than Sergachyov, I don't consider this a good trade. Yzerman gave up nothing of considerable value, Gorton gave up his best asset.

Problem with your opinion is that McD is not and was not at the time of the trade a number 1 D. He was our number 1 D but at this stage of his career he’s a number 3 MAYBE lower level 2

 

[nyr2k2]

I mean we went through this after the trade, but I don't recall seeing anything at all to suggest guys like Sergachev and Point were ever legitimately in play. It would have been idiocy from TB's perspective to make them available.

 

[Thirty One]

I mean we went through this after the trade, but I don't recall seeing anything at all to suggest guys like Sergachev and Point were ever legitimately in play. It would have been idiocy from TB's perspective to make them available.

The fact that some people thought that Point should have been available to us in a Ryan McDonagh trade was stunning to me.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

The fact that some people thought that Point should have been available to us in a Ryan McDonagh trade was stunning to me.

Then, instead of admitting their ignorance they're doubling up and blaming Gorton for not getting players that were never available or would be in any scenario. The height of arrogance.

 

[mrmovies779]

I don't know if I'm going to like this Tampa trade, unless somehow there's a big discrepancy between what I think the outcomes will be for Sergachyov, Hajek and Howden. I just can't consider it proper value for a 1D to get back non-impact player prospects or at least ones that are unlikely to be an impact player. If I'm trading my best player and a player who is top 15 at his position, I want a young impact player coming back.

Tampa really gave nothing away in this trade. Hajek and Howden were spare parts that maybe would've played minor roles in their current core. Maybe they wouldn't have even made the team eventually because of the depth Tampa has. Yet, these were the centerpieces, two guys Tampa would have no problem throwing in. I don't know if the answer is that you walk away and don't trade McDonagh, but unless Hajek and Howden are more valuable than Sergachyov, I don't consider this a good trade. Yzerman gave up nothing of considerable value, Gorton gave up his best asset.

McD is not a top 15 d-man in this league anymore...if he even ever was to begin with.I think your sleeping on the prospects we got back too.

 

[silverfish]

The fact that some people thought that Point should have been available to us in a Ryan McDonagh trade was stunning to me.

Ryan McDonagh + JT Miller. I agree with you on Point, but Sergachev not coming back should've been a dealbreaker. Would've been for me, but that's me. And I guess NYR brass loved Hajek, so at least they got him.

 

[nyr2k2]

The fact that some people thought that Point should have been available to us in a Ryan McDonagh trade was stunning to me.

Right? And then you have Sergachev, who will probably be both better and cheaper than McDonagh within the next two seasons. Sometimes GM's are absolutely desperate to make a move they think will put them over the top and will do something irrational; Yzerman was/is not that GM. And evidently, no one offered us anything better. So we made the moves that we felt needed to make.

I'd also take serious issue with the idea that Hajek isn't a potential impact player, or would only be a bit player for Tampa down the line. Howden I really like, but I don't know if he's an "impact" guy. He might be, but who knows.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Ryan McDonagh + JT Miller. I agree with you on Point, but Sergachev not coming back should've been a dealbreaker. Would've been for me, but that's me. And I guess NYR brass loved Hajek, so at least they got him.

So get less for him later or hold on to him, sign him for a massive contract while we're rebuilding and watch him break down?

 

[silverfish]

So get less for him later or hold on to him, sign him for a massive contract while we're rebuilding and watch him break down?

Or wait 'til the draft when more than half the league might be interested in bidding for his services and see if you can get more? But at the end of the day, Gorton was satisfied. I'm assuming he did his research. That's what the market dictated. It is what it is.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Problem with your opinion is that McD is not and was not at the time of the trade a number 1 D. He was our number 1 D but at this stage of his career he’s a number 3 MAYBE lower level 2

I don't agree with that. I think many people have been way too harsh in their assessments of McD.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

McD is not a top 15 d-man in this league anymore...if he even ever was to begin with.I think your sleeping on the prospects we got back too.

Lets leave aside the McDonagh argument because I just don't agree, but what particularly am I sleeping on about Howden and Hajek? Are they sure thing impact guys? Howden is a sure-thing top 6 forward? Hajek is a sure-thing top 4 D? Thats before we even get into a discussion about whether they can be 1st liners/top pair d. I think the answer is no.

With Sergachyov, you are getting a 1st pair defenseman. The kid is 19 and put up 40 points playing 15 minutes per game. Some of that is playing for the Bolts, but part of it is that he has a good offensive skill-set and is already showing it in the NHL. He also is big, physical and good defensively. He wasn't required to play big minutes for Tampa's D this season due to their depth, but he hasn't been a defensive liability this season, and for a 19 year old D in the NHL thats very impressive.