Player Discussion Jeff Gorton

[Pavel Buchnevich]

What about Point?

Do you honestly think he was even remotely available for...anything?

Sergachev wasn’t even available for Karlsson, a VASTLY superior player to McDonagh. Let alone Point, a 21 year old, 30 goal center.

Maybe your valuation of McDonagh (and Miller) is completely off. Is that not possible?

The counter to that Point and Sergachyov likely weren't available is that McDonagh didn't have to be available. He has a contract for next season. He could've been re-signed. There was nothing saying he had to be traded by this deadline. If Gorton negotiated this well, shouldn't he have started in a position of McDonagh likely wasn't available, only would've been if we got one of those players. Why put all your cards on the table and tell the other guy what move you are making? Its not like Tampa has all the leverage. They clearly don't. McDonagh's contract is leverage in our favor. Tampa being the team thats trying to win compared to us being a team that wasn't pressing to win is also leverage in our favor. Seemingly, neither was used in our favor.

If McDonagh's value was lower than what we would've liked or what some thought, we didn't have to trade him this trade deadline. The fact that Gorton made it into a situation where he had to get something done by the deadline and made that known, I think it played into the hands of Tampa.

 

[Harbour Dog]

Jesper Fast has twice the number of play-off goals Miller has

In <70% of the games.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

In <70% of the games.

But that's because Miller is always demoted to the 4th line

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

First pairing defenseman don't play 15 minutes per game. Or have guys like Hedman and Stralman take the hard minutes for them.

You're down on Hajek and Howden because they're not sure to hit their ceilings but you're sure Sergachev will hit his based on him not even coming close to hitting it yet.

Sergachev is undoubtedly a more proven and higher value player than either of them, but he is absolutely not even close to being a proven first pairing defenseman by any stretch of any definition.

He's 19 years old. He doesn't need to be a first pair defenseman yet. I didn't claim he's a first pair defenseman right now, but he's certainly a top 4 defenseman, and probably not very far away from being a first pair defenseman.

I also didn't claim I am down on Hajek or Howden, but I am being realistic. They are pretty fringe prospects compared to someone like Sergachyov. Try to take off the Rangers goggles for a second. If you were to make a list of the best U20 hockey players in the world, Sergachyov would likely be in the top 10 of that list. Hajek and Howden wouldn't be in the top 50 of that list, and probably also not the top 100.

 

[haveandare]

The counter to that Point and Sergachyov likely weren't available is that McDonagh didn't have to be available. He has a contract for next season. He could've been re-signed. There was nothing saying he had to be traded by this deadline. If Gorton negotiated this well, shouldn't he have started in a position of McDonagh likely wasn't available, only would've been if we got one of those players. Why put all your cards on the table and tell the other guy what move you are making? Its not like Tampa has all the leverage. They clearly don't. McDonagh's contract is leverage in our favor. Tampa being the team thats trying to win compared to us being a team that wasn't pressing to win is also leverage in our favor. Seemingly, neither was used in our favor.

If McDonagh's value was lower than what we would've liked or what some thought, we didn't have to trade him this trade deadline. The fact that Gorton made it into a situation where he had to get something done by the deadline and made that known, I think it played into the hands of Tampa.

Seemingly according to what? Nobody has any insight into what they discussed with any relevant details.

You an tell Yzerman whatever you want, but McDonagh is not worth either of those players and he's competent enough to know that.

If McD's value is lower than we thought, waiting to trade him would make it even lower because now he's an asset to help 1 cup run instead of 2.

 

[mrmovies779]

The counter to that Point and Sergachyov likely weren't available is that McDonagh didn't have to be available. He has a contract for next season. He could've been re-signed. There was nothing saying he had to be traded by this deadline. If Gorton negotiated this well, shouldn't he have started in a position of McDonagh likely wasn't available, only would've been if we got one of those players. Why put all your cards on the table and tell the other guy what move you are making? Its not like Tampa has all the leverage. They clearly don't. McDonagh's contract is leverage in our favor. Tampa being the team thats trying to win compared to us being a team that wasn't pressing to win is also leverage in our favor. Seemingly, neither was used in our favor.

If McDonagh's value was lower than what we would've liked or what some thought, we didn't have to trade him this trade deadline. The fact that Gorton made it into a situation where he had to get something done by the deadline and made that known, I think it played into the hands of Tampa.

Gorton obviously liked the pieces he got back,so I'm not sure why this is even still being discussed.You can try and reason against it anyway you want,but it doesn't change that fact.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Sergachev wasn't available

So McDonagh was? You think Gorton approached Yzerman and offered him for a discount?

I'd certainly hope he wouldn't be offering up his best player for a discount when he had over a year remaining on his contract.

 

[haveandare]

He's 19 years old. He doesn't need to be a first pair defenseman yet. I didn't claim he's a first pair defenseman right now, but he's certainly a top 4 defenseman, and probably not very far away from being a first pair defenseman.

I also didn't claim I am down on Hajek or Howden, but I am being realistic. They are pretty fringe prospects compared to someone like Sergachyov. Try to take off the Rangers goggles for a second. If you were to make a list of the best U20 hockey players in the world, Sergachyov would likely be in the top 10 of that list. Hajek and Howden wouldn't be in the top 50 of that list, and probably also not the top 100.

You said, with him you're getting a first pairing defenseman. You're not. You're getting a third pairing defenseman who had a really great season and is likely to grow a lot before his peak. I never said he has to be a first pairing guy, you said you'd be getting one in him and I'm just saying that remains to be shown. He scored a lot and looked good, but he did it getting light minutes on a stacked team. That doesn't have to lead one to any conclusion about him, those are just the facts of what he did.

 

[mrmovies779]

So McDonagh was? You think Gorton approached Yzerman and offered him for a discount?

I'd certainly hope he wouldn't be offering up his best player for a discount when he had over a year remaining on his contract.

What if the only way we could have gotten Pointe or Sergachev was to include Buch in the package also.Do you make the trade then?

 

[Riche16]

So McDonagh was? You think Gorton approached Yzerman and offered him for a discount?

I'd certainly hope he wouldn't be offering up his best player for a discount when he had over a year remaining on his contract.

McD was because we wanted a change of leadership and weren't going to resign him. So, yes he was available. To anyone who wanted him.

Was the best return from TB? Did Boston offer anything? TOR? Did they but it was worse? You're not GM. Saying "He SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN X!!!" Is ridiculous. You don't know the market value.

But yes, everyone knew McD was available after the letter went out a month prior to the TDL... as was Zucc. But they got the trade for McD done and not the Zucc trade

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

So McDonagh was? You think Gorton approached Yzerman and offered him for a discount?

I'd certainly hope he wouldn't be offering up his best player for a discount when he had over a year remaining on his contract.

Other teams were in on McDonagh too, I think Gorton saw the lay of the land with his value and got the best deal available.

You’re mad he didn’t get a prospect that was more valueable than the guy that we gave up? How often do those kinds of deals happen?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Seemingly according to what? Nobody has any insight into what they discussed with any relevant details.

You an tell Yzerman whatever you want, but McDonagh is not worth either of those players and he's competent enough to know that.

If McD's value is lower than we thought, waiting to trade him would make it even lower because now he's an asset to help 1 cup run instead of 2.

How can you so confidently estimate McDonagh's value? Where are the recent precedents for teams trading players like McDonagh?

And I said the certain leverage situations we had weren't used in our favor, not that they weren't used. If they were used in our favor, I would think we wouldn't have gotten the bare minimum. If somehow they were used in our favor, I just wouldn't believe that McDonagh's value could be even lower than what we got for him.

You are also assuming McDonagh's value is low. We don't know. Maybe Gorton just negotiated poorly. We heard from all the NHL insiders how much value McDonagh had. While they didn't exactly come up with an exact quantification of what that was, I didn't see anywhere other than some Ranger fans suggesting his value was low. When Nash who is considerably worse than McDonagh is traded for the equivalent of a 1st and decent prospect, I'm not exactly worried that we would get no value if we traded McDonagh in the offseason or the following trade deadline. There was no deadline at the most recent trade deadline. That mindset likely created leverage for Yzerman that Gorton didn't have to allow.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Gorton obviously liked the pieces he got back,so I'm not sure why this is even still being discussed.You can try and reason against it anyway you want,but it doesn't change that fact.

By that same logic, Gorton liked AV as his coach until he fired him. Does that mean all fans have to like it because Gorton does?

 

[Edge]

I’ll say this much — if it ever comes out that there was a deal on the table for McD involving a player who eventually becomes a star (even if said player wasn’t viewed to be one at the time of the trade), this board will come UNGLUED.

 

[YoSoyLalo]

How can you so confidently estimate McDonagh's value? Where are the recent precedents for teams trading players like McDonagh?

You realize that posting this is incredibly ironic, right?

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

You said, with him you're getting a first pairing defenseman. You're not. You're getting a third pairing defenseman who had a really great season and is likely to grow a lot before his peak. I never said he has to be a first pairing guy, you said you'd be getting one in him and I'm just saying that remains to be shown. He scored a lot and looked good, but he did it getting light minutes on a stacked team. That doesn't have to lead one to any conclusion about him, those are just the facts of what he did.

I don't think it matters what pair they play him on. Tampa's D was stacked. Marc Staal was playing big minutes for us this season, does that make him a top pairing defenseman or second pair defenseman?

I guess you are right from a literal sense that I said that you are getting a first pair defenseman and he might only be playing on Tampa's third pair right now, but I don't think its a big leap in logic to say he is better currently than the average third pair defenseman in the NHL and he'll most likely end up as a top pairing defenseman, which is what I mean when I said you are getting a first pair defenseman. I never claimed its right away.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

What if the only way we could have gotten Pointe or Sergachev was to include Buch in the package also.Do you make the trade then?

It depends what the trade is.

I don't particularly see your point here. Or do you have one? I'll guess trying to be a smart-ass.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

McD was because we wanted a change of leadership and weren't going to resign him. So, yes he was available. To anyone who wanted him.

Was the best return from TB? Did Boston offer anything? TOR? Did they but it was worse? You're not GM. Saying "He SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN X!!!" Is ridiculous. You don't know the market value.

But yes, everyone knew McD was available after the letter went out a month prior to the TDL... as was Zucc. But they got the trade for McD done and not the Zucc trade

At the very least, it seems like we are in agreement that Gorton played the leverage that he was afforded very poorly, potentially negating it by his actions.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

Other teams were in on McDonagh too, I think Gorton saw the lay of the land with his value and got the best deal available.

You’re mad he didn’t get a prospect that was more valueable than the guy that we gave up? How often do those kinds of deals happen?

No, I'm mad that I think we didn't get proper value in an important trade for the team. McDonagh didn't need to be traded.

I don't know why some fans refuse to question the moves of the GM. I don't claim to know all the facts of the situation, but neither do any of you. At the very least, it seems a questionable return based on what we possibly could know.

 

[GeorgeKaplan]

No, I'm mad that I think we didn't get proper value in an important trade for the team. McDonagh didn't need to be traded.

I don't know why some fans refuse to question the moves of the GM. I don't claim to know all the facts of the situation, but neither do any of you. At the very least, it seems a questionable return based on what we possibly could know.

My initial reaction was we didn’t get fair value, then I went and looked at trades for ‘star’ players and the formula for the trade was essentially the same, and it looks like we got better value with the individual pieces than other trades, and I was fine with it.

I don’t mind questioning the GM, I just think this specific instance is a case of expectation vs reality

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

I think people were expecting more after the Nash trade. But that's a result of both underestimating Nash' value and overestimating McDonagh's value.

The Nash trade was a great return for us. The McDonagh trade was fair. On a scale of 1 to 100, with 1 being the worst return and 100 being the best return, I think the Nash trade was around 80, while the McDonagh trade was around 50. Not good, not bad. Fair value.

I'd say its the opposite.

I thought we got less than fair value for McDonagh and more than fair value for Nash. You could say that evens out, but if the McDonagh trade is on a bigger scale, I'd hope that includes higher quality than just an equalization of quantity.

 

[Nopuckluck]

Would you trade Ryan McDonagh and JT Miller (with their combined 12+million per year incoming) for a first a second two stud prospects and a good young NHL player making only 3 million? I would and I’d laugh all the way to the bank. A few of you led by PB massively overrate the guys Tampa got and massively underrate what we got back and the cap room we’ve saved.

Holy shit. Take off your Rangers goggles.

 

[haveandare]

How can you so confidently estimate McDonagh's value? Where are the recent precedents for teams trading players like McDonagh?

And I said the certain leverage situations we had weren't used in our favor, not that they weren't used. If they were used in our favor, I would think we wouldn't have gotten the bare minimum. If somehow they were used in our favor, I just wouldn't believe that McDonagh's value could be even lower than what we got for him.

You are also assuming McDonagh's value is low. We don't know. Maybe Gorton just negotiated poorly. We heard from all the NHL insiders how much value McDonagh had. While they didn't exactly come up with an exact quantification of what that was, I didn't see anywhere other than some Ranger fans suggesting his value was low. When Nash who is considerably worse than McDonagh is traded for the equivalent of a 1st and decent prospect, I'm not exactly worried that we would get no value if we traded McDonagh in the offseason or the following trade deadline. There was no deadline at the most recent trade deadline. That mindset likely created leverage for Yzerman that Gorton didn't have to allow.

How can you?

He hasn't played like a top 15 D here for a few years and he sure as hell didn't just play like one for them.

He's getting older, he's doing to be due a big contract. I think it's pretty logical to assume that if he were worth the kind of stuff you're talking about, someone would have offered it. Some would say that what is offered is his value regardless of what it was, and there's a legitimate argument behind that.

NHL insiders said he had value, but where were the offers in line with that value? It's easy to tweet something but that doesn't mean it's true or has anything behind it, especially when we're talking about people who write for a living throwing out vague statements about a major player for a major franchise around the TDL. They win when people read them, and people read them when they say what people like to hear.

I didn't say McD would have no value next year, but he'd have less value for sure as he's most valuably to teams pushing to win, and getting him this year meant 2 shots at it.

There was no deadline this year, but who said there was? Maybe Gorton went in wanting Hajek, Howden and a 1st, he got Yzerman to offer it and he ran with what he wanted. Is that so unbelievable?

 

[Levitate]

Markets are what they are boys and girls.

No different than job hunting. Sometimes you need to be resolute and hold out for what you feel you're worth. Other times the market is what it is and you have to be realistic about it. But either way, at some point you arrive at a level of acceptance and move on.

I don't think McD's value was much higher than what we got. Don't think less term was going to do us any favors. Don't think a strong finish was going to raise the price much.

Don't think McD is as bad as he played for TB this last round, or as done as some make him out to be. Not quite convinced the future holds strong odds of a revival for him, at least not long-term. I'd say the most likely, "best case scenario" is that he 's more or less able to maintain his level of play for a few more years. But even then, it would still be noticeably lower than it was 3 or 4 years ago and not likely to get us that level of return.

I feel like it's pretty rare for a deadline acquisition to come in and really play their best even if their team goes deep in the playoffs. There's settling into a new system, new locker room, new partners, finding their place in the room and on the ice...McDonagh went from being the go to guy to being second fiddle to Hedman at least. I'll be interested to see how he adjusts with a full training camp under his belt with Tampa

 

[Edge]

My initial reaction was we didn’t get fair value, then I went and looked at trades for ‘star’ players and the formula for the trade was essentially the same, and it looks like we got better value with the individual pieces than other trades, and I was fine with it.

I don’t mind questioning the GM, I just think this specific instance is a case of expectation vs reality

I think the expectation for McD was set way too high. I truly don’t believe those deals were there, or were going to be there.

I also see the Rangers concern about going into a long term deal with McD. So in that regard, the clock was ticking. Not because the Rangers announced a rebuild, but because the minute the Rangers shopped McD the rest of the league was going to know he wasn’t in the Rangers long term plans.