Jason Botterill Discussion 2

[Chainshot]

Casey just played an 82 game season and was out of gas at the end. Maybe they feel it is better for him to rest a bit and then work on his strength.

Good excuse. If they think he couldn't work on his on-ice game decisions, or perhaps get some confidence to springboard him into summer training, it's indicative of deeper problems than them thinking he was ready to begin with. The coddling has been one of the silliest aspects of Botterill's tenure. What he tried to do with Mittelstadt was akin to Regier forcing players into the lineup early... and none of them have hit the levels expected at their draft. Pardon me if I don't endorse anything that these guys think is good for anyone after watching two years of inept actions.

 

[Sabre the Win]

It may seem like a small move, but Botterill trading the first pick of the 6th round (#156) in the 2018 draft, for a 2019 6th round pick (#180) from Toronto shows just how incompetent he is.

This is still sour grapes for me.

 

[The Red Helmet]

Great, we're back to complaining about the 6th round draft pick again.

Yea, dude. Because it shows clear incompetence. It is like giving someone a loan at a negative interest rate and getting back less money than you give for that loan when there are people lining up to give you 5%. Do you understand how receiving poor value in return for your assets in trades is not good for an NHL GM?

Player for player trades can be debated as to how much value was returned but this is much more clear which is why it is emphasized by those who criticize Botterill. What he did with that pick is pretty much unprecedented. GM's don't trade picks in an ongoing draft for a pick that is going to be later in a future draft, unprecedented. It shows his judgment sucks.

I understand you are trying to simplify it to "we're back to complaining about the 6th round pick again", but that either means you don't understand the greater point, or you are deliberately being obtuse because you are a Botterill apologist.

 

[Montag DP]

Good excuse. If they think he couldn't work on his on-ice game decisions, or perhaps get some confidence to springboard him into summer training, it's indicative of deeper problems than them thinking he was ready to begin with. The coddling has been one of the silliest aspects of Botterill's tenure. What he tried to do with Mittelstadt was akin to Regier forcing players into the lineup early... and none of them have hit the levels expected at their draft. Pardon me if I don't endorse anything that these guys think is good for anyone after watching two years of inept actions.

I absolutely agree he should have been with the Amerks for a large part of the year, as should have Thompson. But you're kind of moving the goalposts around here. First it was that the Amerks' good regular season can't be credited to Botterill, then it was that Mittelstadt should have been paper transacted to the Amerks at the end of the season, now it's that Mittelstadt was forced into an NHL role he was not ready for. While true, it's not what we were discussing.

My point is, there's plenty to criticize Botterill for, but this whole trend of blaming him for nearly everything negative that happens in the organization is rather mindless.

 

[Chainshot]

I absolutely agree he should have been with the Amerks for a large part of the year, as should have Thompson. But you're kind of moving the goalposts around here. First it was that the Amerks' good regular season can't be credited to Botterill, then it was that Mittelstadt should have been paper transacted to the Amerks at the end of the season, now it's that Mittelstadt was forced into an NHL role he was not ready for. While true, it's not what we were discussing.

My point is, there's plenty to criticize Botterill for, but this whole trend of blaming him for nearly everything negative that happens in the organization is rather mindless.

Find a post where I said something about the good season in Rochester not being a credit to the front office. I'll wait.

And yes, Mitts should have at least been sent down at the deadline. The reason wasn't that he would be tired, it was that he would go to the WC's -- which clearly didn't happen. So thinking he needs rest doesn't fit the comments that he was going to travel overseas and play more games well into May.

 

[The Red Helmet]

Casey just played an 82 game season and was out of gas at the end. Maybe they feel it is better for him to rest a bit and then work on his strength.

What was he at the beginning and middle then?

Let me expand. This kid is soft. People like to disregard it when players can't do a pull-up at the combine but at the bare minimum, it shows you have not developed the commitment to getting and keeping your body in the physical condition it needs to be in to succeed at a pro level. If I am a GM, I am drafting guys who aren't going to need much motivation to commit to keep their bodies and skills at a pro level.

Mittelstadt has skills but he needs to take a big step physically and with his maturity. I hoped he enjoyed he time at the Masters because if he wasn't in the gym/on the ice this week, or isn't planning on committing to it in the off-season, his season and career are going to stall real quick. I hope he gets it but I don't know that he does and maybe if we had a good team and a Drury in there it would make a difference. Right now I am very worried that Mittelstadt is on a much lower trajectory than many of us had him a year ago.

 

[Montag DP]

Find a post where I said something about the good season in Rochester not being a credit to the front office. I'll wait.

The next person who says "but he fixed the Amerks" can suck a puck.

Worse GM than Murray and that took something.

It was only on the last page...

 

[Montag DP]

What was he at the beginning and middle then?

Sorry, you will have to rephrase your question, because that doesn't make sense.

 

[Zip15]

Yes, the 6th round trade was moronic. Trading back 20 spots, one year later, no extra pick obtained, and oh by the way another team got a 5th rounder for their 6th literally 3 mins after we made that trade just to remind us again how poor a negotiator Botts is.

I made a big deal about it at the time. So did a few others. It was mind numbing.

 

[Chainshot]

Great, we're back to complaining about the 6th round draft pick again.

This is still sour grapes for me.

Yea, dude. Because it shows clear incompetence. It is like giving someone a loan at a negative interest rate and getting back less money than you give for that loan when there are people lining up to give you 5%. Do you understand how receiving poor value in return for your assets in trades is not good for an NHL GM?

Player for player trades can be debated as to how much value was returned but this is much more clear which is why it is emphasized by those who criticize Botterill. What he did with that pick is pretty much unprecedented. GM's don't trade picks in an ongoing draft for a pick that is going to be later in a future draft, unprecedented. It shows his judgment sucks.

I understand you are trying to simplify it to "we're back to complaining about the 6th round pick again", but that either means you don't understand the greater point, or you are deliberately being obtuse because you are a Botterill apologist.

That was my point when it happened - it was indicative of him not working competitive advantage for his team. Literally three picks after Buffalo's move, the Wings acquired a fifth for a sixth --- that's market value. It's the greater scope of it all... and then the comment that it was because they had no one left on their list (which was sort of surprising when there are a host of players still available but probably from watching too much Liiga to think the Jackets later 6th Veini Vehvilainen will be at least a good AHLer. But after that, they still went and took William Worge Kreu in the 7th round. So... why the comment about their list? It was so sophomoric.

 

[Chainshot]

Yes, the 6th round trade was moronic. Trading back 20 spots, one year later, no extra pick obtained, and oh by the way another team got a 5th rounder for their 6th literally 3 mins after we made that trade just to remind us again how poor a negotiator Botts is.

I made a big deal about it at the time. So did a few others. It was mind numbing.

Yep. And we were told to not worry about it. Individually, sure. It's one event. Taken as part of the whole of his management? It's just another indicator pointing toward him not being a good GM.

 

[Chainshot]

What was he at the beginning and middle then?

Let me expend. This kid is soft. People like to disregard it when players can't do a pull-up at the combine but at the bare minimum, it shows you have not developed the commitment to getting and keeping your body in the physical condition it needs to be in to succeed at a pro level. If I am a GM, I am drafting guys who aren't going to need much motivation to commit to keep their bodies and skills at a pro level.

Mittelstadt has skills but he needs to take a big step physically and with his maturity. I hoped he enjoyed he time at the Masters because if he wasn't in the gym/on the ice this week, or isn't planning on committing to it in the off-season, he season and career are going to stall real quick. I hope he gets it but I don't know that he does and maybe if we had a good team and a Drury in there it would make a difference. Right now I am very worried that Mittelstadt is on a much lower trajectory than many of us had him a year ago.

Eh, the pullup thing was solved with a technique change immediately after he got to UM and he was doing reps akin to average combine participants. He had bad coaching on that, solved immediately.

 

[Chainshot]

It was only on the last page...

The post that Botterill can't actually hang his hat on fixing the Americans as a measure of showing his competence as an NHL GM as the over-riding positive of his tenure? That's not running down that they Amerks had a good regular season, that's pointing out that people who think he's done a good job at it aren't paying attention to the playoffs.

 

[Montag DP]

What was he at the beginning and middle then?

Let me expend. This kid is soft. People like to disregard it when players can't do a pull-up at the combine but at the bare minimum, it shows you have not developed the commitment to getting and keeping your body in the physical condition it needs to be in to succeed at a pro level. If I am a GM, I am drafting guys who aren't going to need much motivation to commit to keep their bodies and skills at a pro level.

Mittelstadt has skills but he needs to take a big step physically and with his maturity. I hoped he enjoyed he time at the Masters because if he wasn't in the gym/on the ice this week, or isn't planning on committing to it in the off-season, he season and career are going to stall real quick. I hope he gets it but I don't know that he does and maybe if we had a good team and a Drury in there it would make a difference. Right now I am very worried that Mittelstadt is on a much lower trajectory than many of us had him a year ago.

Not everyone has physically blossomed by age 19. He was a boy playing against men. Reinhart was the same way. I'm sure he will commit to hitting the gym in the offseason, but it will probably take a few years before he can win physical battles consistently.

 

[Montag DP]

The post that Botterill can't actually hang his hat on fixing the Americans as a measure of showing his competence as an NHL GM as the over-riding positive of his tenure? That's not running down that they Amerks had a good regular season, that's pointing out that people who think he's done a good job at it aren't paying attention to the playoffs.

At which point I pointed out that it's not his fault they were completely snakebitten in the playoffs, and now we're going in circles...

The Amerks are in a significantly improved situation compared to where they were during Murray's tenure, regardless of their disappointing playoffs. How is that not a positive that Botterill can take credit for?

 

[Chainshot]

At which point I pointed out that it's not his fault they were completely snakebitten in the playoffs, and now we're going in circles...

And my point that he had options to help them... which you followed with nonsense about Mittelstadt needing rest that flies in the face of the comments about him going to the WC's. Circles. More excuses to defend Botterill, got it. The guy has been flat out bad at his job for two years now. Taking shots at me won't change my opinion of him being in over his head and the harm he has done and will do to the team.

The Amerks are in a significantly improved situation compared to where they were during Murray's tenure, regardless of their disappointing playoffs. How is that not a positive that Botterill can take credit for?

The commentary that Botterill isn't a good GM, with the points about his bleeding talent from the lineup in trade, his poor performing NHL roster players, his poor coaching hires his in-season roster inaction, his acceptance of veteran nepotism by his coach is then set against "oh, he fixed the Amerks". It's great that he's reached AHL benchmarks that some teams seem to reach as basic competency. Look at actual "good" AHL franchises over the last few years -- Grand Rapids, Toronto come to mind. The Bears are the benchmark for it up to the last two years. It's such a small accomplishment to weigh against the rest of his deficits.

 

[Montag DP]

And my point that he had options to help them... which you followed with nonsense about Mittelstadt needing rest that flies in the face of the comments about him going to the WC's.

I didn't know Mittelstadt was going. That pretty much throws my idea for an excuse out the window. Perhaps if you had responded with that in the first place, this would have been a more productive discussion.

Circles. More excuses to defend Botterill, got it. The guy has been flat out bad at his job for two years now. Taking shots at me won't change my opinion of him being in over his head and the harm he has done and will do to the team.

Taking shots at you? Where? I have made every attempt to have a reasonable, respectful discussion, but I understand that emotions run high and such a thing is unlikely on this board with this subject. Don't take disagreement personally.

 

[Gabrielor]

At which point I pointed out that it's not his fault they were completely snakebitten in the playoffs, and now we're going in circles...

The Amerks are in a significantly improved situation compared to where they were during Murray's tenure, regardless of their disappointing playoffs. How is that not a positive that Botterill can take credit for?

Is it though? Let's peek into 2019-2020:

Only 2 of their top 10 scorers are guaranteed to be back: Asplund and Redmond

Pilut, Olofsson are due for full-time NHL jobs. C.J.Smith should be eyeing the NHL as well, and Nylander is a complete enigma, who could make the the NHL team, be traded, be hurt, etc.

Simpson, ORegan, Leier, Porter are all UFAs.

Coming in is...Fitzgerald, Bryson, and Luukkonen. Great goalie acquistion, and some definite d help, but that so-so forward core is looking at a complete rebuild of veterans.

If Tage or Casey look like their 18-19 versions in camp, you'd hope they start in Roch, but I doubt that Botts walk back his mistake there.

 

[Montag DP]

Is it though? Let's peek into 2019-2020:

Only 2 of their top 10 scorers are guaranteed to be back: Asplund and Redmond

Pilut, Olofsson are due for full-time NHL jobs. C.J.Smith should be eyeing the NHL as well, and Nylander is a complete enigma, who could make the the NHL team, be traded, be hurt, etc.

Simpson, ORegan, Leier, Porter are all UFAs.

Coming in is...Fitzgerald, Bryson, and Luukkonen. Great goalie acquistion, and some definite d help, but that so-so forward core is looking at a complete rebuild of veterans.

They have an offseason to replenish some of that talent through the draft and other acquisitions. Every AHL team goes through constant roster churn. The fact that the GM actually prioritizes a strong minor league program is automatically a huge improvement over the Murray era.

 

[Chainshot]

I didn't know Mittelstadt was going. That pretty much throws my idea for an excuse out the window. Perhaps if you had responded with that in the first place, this would have been a more productive discussion.

Taking shots at you? Where? I have made every attempt to have a reasonable, respectful discussion, but I understand that emotions run high and such a thing is unlikely on this board with this subject. Don't take disagreement personally.

Why do I have to tell you that Botterill's explanation for Casey's non-assignment to Rochester was that Casey was going to the WC's (which is not the case, he was not invited)? Your commentary about post content being productive is an example of the passive shots at me. I don't take it personally.

 

[Montag DP]

Why do I have to tell you that Botterill's explanation for Casey's non-assignment to Rochester was that Casey was going to the WC's (which is not the case, he was not invited)? Your commentary about post content being productive is an example of the passive shots at me. I don't take it personally.

Then what the heck are you talking about? If he was not invited, then how could him going to the WCs be an excuse for him not being assigned to Rochester? And no, I am not taking passive shots at you. Your responses are just not making sense, at least to me. Maybe that's because there were some comments or developments you are assuming I am aware of that I actually missed.

 

[Tsyolin]

I know everybody wants to argue back and forth about what did and didnt happen with the front office guys but I do wanna say, as a fan of a Rochester team that's wallowed in absolute misery for almost 15 years, it was nice having a team worth getting excited about again.

Say what you will about how the post season was handled, Rochester was made relevant again and I can only hope it's a trend that continues for years to come. No, I don't think this season was a failure like a lot of people seem to feel.

 

[sabremike]

Then what the heck are you talking about? If he was not invited, then how could him going to the WCs be an excuse for him not being assigned to Rochester? And no, I am not taking passive shots at you.

Bott's excuse for not doing a paper transaction to make him eligible for the AHL was that he expected Mitts to make the WC team, which was absolutely ludicrous and insane. That prevented him for playing for Rochester and was mind numbingly stupid.

 

[Montag DP]

Bott's excuse for not doing a paper transaction to make him eligible for the AHL was that he expected Mitts to make the WC team, which was absolutely ludicrous and insane. That prevented him for playing for Rochester and was mind numbingly stupid.

Okay, thanks.

 

[Gabrielor]

They have an offseason to replenish some of that talent through the draft and other acquisitions. Every AHL team goes through constant roster churn. The fact that the GM actually prioritizes a strong minor league program is automatically a huge improvement over the Murray era.

Free Agency? Possibly. I'm much less aware on the goings-on of AHL veteran acquistions.

As for the draft, I can answer. Our top pick this year won't be an AHL body, regardless of the pick, nor will any other 2019 selection.

Our recent drafts:

2012-2015 is dead.

2016 really only has potentially Glotov for this upcoming year (and the aforementioned Fitzgerald)

2017 will bring us Luukkonen and Bryson

2018 won't have anything yet, unless they decide to rush Pekar, or he has a hulk-up summer.
(Side note, picking only 6 times in each of 2017 and 2018 will eventually hurt the overall depth-flow of the pipeline).


That pretty much leaves the UDFA market. Guys like Ruotsalainen could make up the difference, but that's on Botts to fill the void of incoming young AHL talent with non-draft solutions.