OT: James Mirtle and Kyle Dubas

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Throw More Waffles

Unprecedented Dramatic Overpayments
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Using team success to determine individual contracts is always a lousy idea: it’s how you end up paying guys like Seabrook 6 million a season.
Paying forwards under a ppg over their career with a high 73 points as though they were franchise elite generational players is a lousy idea. It's how end up paying guys like Matthews 11.6x5
 

Americanadian

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Sep 11, 2016
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1. I can throw out the closest comparable (which it isn't) if the criteria doesn't match (which it doesn't). There's no sense in shoehorning bad comparisons in just for the sake of having one. Matthews' contract, for now, is a unicorn.

2. The Ehlers contract was signed under different circumstances than Nylander's. I'll put it to you this way: if Ehlers had waited until after Year 3 of his ELC, and had put up a second-straight 60-point season, do you think he still would have signed for $6m per? He signed with less track record to his name at a time when the cap bump from Vegas was unknown. His value is deflated due to his impatience.

Pastrnak had extremely similar ELC stats to Nylander with a better platform year, and his contract adjusted for 2018-19 was $7.07M, so Nylander's AAV from Years 2-6 will come in underneath that adjustment. The most you could reasonably argue Nylander is overpaid by is maybe $200-$250k per year, based on his comparables.

3. Players shouldn't be paid based on team trophies like Stanley Cups. Toews, for example, signed a legacy-based contract that is going to negatively impact Chicago's plans for years, getting continuously worse. Kopitar's deal didn't look too great this year, either. Players should be paid based on production, and Matthews' production at such a young age is elite. Fun fact: as the cap continues to go up, so will the prevalence of $10M+ contracts, so we need to wrap our heads around a whole bunch of non-top-5 players making 8 figures.

4. So if you'd be fine with/wouldn't mind Matthews making $11.634M next year on an 8-year contract, why aren't you fine with Matthews making $11.634M next year on a 5-year contract? The impact on next year's cap, which you seem to have issues with, is the same. The truth is that an 8-year contract was never going to be at that level, though, with the cap continuing to climb and dragging annual salaries up. Very soon we will see worse players making more than McDavid.

So far we've established that you want all of our players to be on bargain bin deals, think Tavares should be getting less than Kopitar's cap hit %, think Nylander is overpaid by ~$1M because of Ehlers' short-sighted decision, and Matthews is overpaid by ~$2M by comparing him to a Stamkos deal signed under a different CBA and different RFA climate 8 years ago.

The overarching issue that we're not talking about here is this: paying your high-end talent handsomely isn't what kills you: it's overpaying your low-end talent. The collective $13.35M we're going to be paying Marleau/Zaitsev/Brown next year is what's going to prevent us from keeping Gardiner, and is what puts us in a bind with Kapanen/Johnsson. Our high-end talent shouldn't have to take less because we've overpaid players at the bottom of our roster.

I do want all of our players on bargain bin deals - that’s the key to success in this league. Look at Tampa they just won 62 games because they have the best salary structure in the league. We are overpaying Marleau/Zaitsev/Brown but they can be sent out the door. At the end of the day the overpaid players at the top can not be sent out the door. Therefore the issue is the overpayment of players we aren’t comfortable losing.
 

Stephen

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So I’ll grant you that there is ONE other example of a contract almost as bad as Matthews.

Does that really make you feel better? “It’s not the ONLY time a player with mediocre stats got paid like a generational player after their elc. There is ONE other”.

I don't feel bad about it, just pointing out you're blatantly ignoring the signs of what this economic climate is producing when it comes to second contracts for highly drafted players coming off ELC's.
 

Throw More Waffles

Unprecedented Dramatic Overpayments
Oct 9, 2015
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I don't feel bad about it, just pointing out you're blatantly ignoring the signs of what this economic climate is producing when it comes to second contracts for highly drafted players coming off ELC's.
That's what everyone told me after Nylander signed his contract.

Then a few months later TT (60 points year prior, and then 80 point pace... significantly higher than Nylander) signed for 5.4x5.

It remains to be seen if this really is some "new trend", or if it's just Dubas giving out these contracts anticipating this change.

Time will tell.

There are many litmus tests coming up. Connor should make significantly more than Nylander. Rantanen, Point, and Aho shouldn't make a penny less than Marner.

Time will tell.

I don't for a SECOND think this will work out well for the leafs. Not even for the slightest second. I think Dubas is just a rookie that doesn't really know what he's doing.

Time will tell.
 

BertCorbeau

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How he’s playing now?
He was on a 66 point pace over 82 since January. (Or something like that.. going off memory).


Regardless, when I compared Nylander to Pastrnak, I argued this way. I said Pastrnak at the END of his elc is a 34 goal/70 point player compared to Nylander’s 20/60. What did everyone do? Pointed to ppg including rookie years to rationalize Nylanders pay.

I’m really just getting sick of the inconsistencies.

Are you consistent? Are you including Nylanders rookie year when comparing to Pastrnak?

You mean his point pace dropped after he returned from injury? IIRC this was similar last season as well.

Which has been my point all along.
 

hotpaws

Registered User
Nov 21, 2009
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That's what everyone told me after Nylander signed his contract.

Then a few months later TT (60 points year prior, and then 80 point pace... significantly higher than Nylander) signed for 5.4x5.

It remains to be seen if this really is some "new trend", or if it's just Dubas giving out these contracts anticipating this change.


Time will tell.

There are many litmus tests coming up. Connor should make significantly more than Nylander. Rantanen, Point, and Aho shouldn't make a penny less than Marner.

Time will tell.

I don't for a SECOND think this will work out well for the leafs. Not even for the slightest second. I think Dubas is just a rookie that doesn't really know what he's doing.

Time will tell.

trend or just better cap mgmt than over paying ufa's who'll be regressing during the term of there deals the fact remains Dubas negotiated very poor deals for the team

Nylander - overpaid by roughly 500k

Mathews - 8yr cap hit but for only 5 yrs and then threw a full nmc on the 5th yr basically giving all the leverage/control to AM

Dubas bs'd his way into the job and is being exposed . Hopefully he performs better in the future for the teams and fans sake .
 

Throw More Waffles

Unprecedented Dramatic Overpayments
Oct 9, 2015
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You mean his point pace dropped after he returned from injury? IIRC this was similar last season as well.

Which has been my point all along.
McDavid had significant injuries during his elc. 1.4 ppg over elc. Same with Crosby. 1.35 ppg over elc.

I mean... come on. At what point are these excuses pretty lame?

What about the other points I brought up in that post? Just ignoring those?
 

BertCorbeau

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McDavid had significant injuries during his elc. 1.4 ppg over elc. Same with Crosby. 1.35 ppg over elc.

I mean... come on. At what point are these excuses pretty lame?

What about the other points I brought up in that post? Just ignoring those?

:facepalm: Do you not realize that I am agreeing with you that Matthews' contract isn't necessarily deserving? And that I'm stating it's because of his injuries more than his production itself, which has been impacted from them. As I've explained.

It has nothing to do with Nylander and all of that crap that you're trying to drag into this about rationalizing their play.

Yeesh.
 

Throw More Waffles

Unprecedented Dramatic Overpayments
Oct 9, 2015
12,910
9,793
:facepalm: Do you not realize that I am agreeing with you that Matthews' contract isn't necessarily deserving? And that I'm stating it's because of his injuries more than his production itself, which has been impacted from them. As I've explained.

It has nothing to do with Nylander and all of that crap that you're trying to drag into this about rationalizing their play.

Yeesh.
Ah. So with MATTHEWS, who cares about his rookie year, and you "care more about how he's playing now, not using his rookie season to weigh him down."

What bothers me is that is the PRECISE argument I made for why Pastrnak wasn't a legitimate comparable for Nylander. That Pastrnak's rookie season shouldn't weigh him down. That his final elc season was FAR superior to Nylanders. Yet I constantly got mocked and shut down.

So to now see you use that precise same argument to defend Matthews shows just how inconsistent all of this is. You'll all spin anything you can to try and rationalize these overpayments. How could you not see it? You can't just change ALL of the metrics for why Nylander deserves his contract compared to Matthews. There is NO consistency.
 
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Kiwi

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Mar 5, 2016
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:facepalm: Do you not realize that I am agreeing with you that Matthews' contract isn't necessarily deserving? And that I'm stating it's because of his injuries more than his production itself, which has been impacted from them. As I've explained.

It has nothing to do with Nylander and all of that crap that you're trying to drag into this about rationalizing their play.

Yeesh.

I'm with you on that one Bert

I can't understand why we always end up at the Nylander contract when Matthews contract is far more egregious IMO, Nylander is high but Matthews is another stratosphere

I'm of the belief that Dubas has done a poor job with the RFA contracts and have said so, why we need to argue the same thing, over and over again is painful at this point
 

hotpaws

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Nov 21, 2009
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:facepalm: Do you not realize that I am agreeing with you that Matthews' contract isn't necessarily deserving? And that I'm stating it's because of his injuries more than his production itself, which has been impacted from them. As I've explained.
"isn't necessarily deserving" , injuries or not i have no idea how anyone could justify the deal he got

McD signed for 12.5m x 8yrs a year earlier and as much as i love AM i have no idea how anyone could argue he's worth any more than roughly 11.5m x 8yrs and the cap hit lowers from there with less term

Dubas got bent over , end of story . this obsession a handful of people have to try to defend or somehow try to downplay the overpayment so Dubas doesn't look incompetent in pathetic .
 

acrobaticgoalie

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Jun 18, 2014
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Ah. So with MATTHEWS, who cares about his rookie year, and you "care more about how he's playing now, not using his rookie season to weigh him down."

What bothers me is that is the PRECISE argument I made for why Pastrnak wasn't a legitimate comparable for Nylander. That Pastrnak's rookie season shouldn't weigh him down. That his final elc season was FAR superior to Nylanders. Yet I constantly got mocked and shut down.

So to now see you use that precise same argument to defend Matthews shows just how inconsistent all of this is. You'll all spin anything you can to try and rationalize these overpayments. How could you not see it? You can't just change ALL of the metrics for why Nylander deserves his contract compared to Matthews. There is NO consistency.
I'm just curious. What cap hit would you have signed Matthews to?
 

BertCorbeau

F*ck cancer - RIP Fugu and Buffaloed
Jan 6, 2012
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Ah. So with MATTHEWS, who cares about his rookie year, and you "care more about how he's playing now, not using his rookie season to weigh him down."

What bothers me is that is the PRECISE argument I made for why Pastrnak wasn't a legitimate comparable for Nylander. That Pastrnak's rookie season shouldn't weigh him down. That his final elc season was FAR superior to Nylanders. Yet I constantly got mocked and shut down.

So to now see you use that precise same argument to defend Matthews shows just how inconsistent all of this is. You'll all spin anything you can to try and rationalize these overpayments. How could you not see it? You can't just change ALL of the metrics for why Nylander deserves his contract compared to Matthews. There is NO consistency.

My god, it's like talking to a brick wall. You're not even listening to anything I'm saying and have entirely missed the point.

I haven't discussed Nylander at all, I've stayed out of that mess, but I do feel that it's a high AAV. And I'm agreeing with you that Matthews' contract could be an overpayment as well - just for different reasons. If you can get your head around this, then you should realize that you don't have to rant at my like I'm trying to defend all of these contracts. If you can't get your head around this, then we're done here.
 
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