Jake Voracek

[YEM]

Jake just needs to score 70 points to be worth that contract in today's NHL.

which he's done twice in 9 seasons

Jake's problems are unacceptable for his $8.2M contract; 2nd highest paid player on the Flyers; around 12th highest in the league; we have to stop making excuses for him -- he is what he is, a maddeningly inconsistent, mistake-prone forward; and the Flyers would be wise to explore the market for him.

I'm with you

 

[PALE PWNR]

Theres like 3-5 players in the league that aren't inconsistent in putting up points in today's NHL.

 

[BernieParent]

Voracek is the last guy on the team I'm worried about.

I'd put Voracek at about the middle of the line-up in terms of being worried about them. He has to live up to big expectations. I was surprised by Tripod's stats for his point production because my takeaway from him this season is a horrible paraphrase from Macbeth: full of sound and fury signifying nothing. In other words, he often carries the puck like a bat out of hell, cycles it with determination, and then ... loses it, makes a bad pass, or fires a weak shot on net.

I love seeing Voracek out on the 3-on-3 because he can fly with the puck and generally makes good plays, but his 5-on-5 play hasn't been inspiring. And we won't talk about his contribution to PP1.

 

[Hockeypete49]

Jake has been falling off by every measure the last two years, but the biggest problem is 2014-15 was a fluke, not his norm. Looking at his career, he's a 20-40 60 guy with average defense, i.e., a forward who should be on a 5 year $30M contract, not an 8 year $66M deal which just started this year.

Last 3 seasons:
CF rel 7.3 / 3.5 / 1.3
+/- 1 / -5 / -24
E +/- 14.7 / 6.7 / - 1.5

1 point in 6 playoff games last year

It's not Jake's fault........it is the head coach.

 

[YEM]

Theres like 3-5 players in the league that aren't inconsistent in putting up points in today's NHL.

not really true
there are 46 active players in the league who have had multiple 60+ point seasons over the least 5 years including this one
[jake/wayne/claude] are all on that list for us

 

[Lotusflower]

I've been posting about Voracek a lot the last week or two -- in that the team really needs to consider trading him.

This thread is a good place to summarize why.

1. Virtually everyone acknowledged that Voracek's 2015-16 season was terrible. Unfortunately, we assumed it was an outlier. Voracek hasn't been any better this season, as his horrendous play since mid-December canceled out his great first two months.

2015-16: 73 games, 55 points (.75 ppg), -5.
2016-16: 80 games, 60 points (.75 ppg), -24 (team worst)

2. Since Feb. 1, in 29 games Jake has only 15 points -- 5th on the team behind Schenn, Couturier, Giroux, and Ghost -- and -12, which is by far the worst on the team. To compare, Manning is 2nd worst at -6, Couturier and Gudas are +13 and +11, respectively, and Schenn, Giroux, and Ghost are -1, -2, and -2. This really paints a picture of how utterly bad Jake has been the last two months, to the point of being a liability.

3. Jake's Home/Road splits this year suggest he, along with goaltending, are the biggest contributors to this team's monster struggles away from the WFC.

Home: 39 games, 13 goals, 23 assists, 36 pts, -1, 156 shots
Road: 41 games, 6 goals, 18 assists, 24 pts, -23, 92 shots

When you add in to the above that Voracek is a black hole on the PP who actually hurts PP1 because teams can shade away from him without repercussion, and also factor that the Flyers are stacked at RW, especially with Schenn being 10x better at ES on the right side and with Konecny also being much better on RW and better off returning there, I come to the following conclusion:

Jake's problems are unacceptable for his $8.2M contract; 2nd highest paid player on the Flyers; around 12th highest in the league; we have to stop making excuses for him -- he is what he is, a maddeningly inconsistent, mistake-prone forward; and the Flyers would be wise to explore the market for him.

So we deal Voracek to make a place for Schenn? Color me confused

 

[PALE PWNR]

not really true
there are 46 active players in the league who have had multiple 60+ point seasons over the least 5 years including this one
[jake/wayne/claude] are all on that list for us

Meant consistent on a game to game basis. Which is what I think Ghosts Beer was talking about.

 

[Hockeypete49]

So we deal Voracek to make a place for Schenn? Color me confused

Who do you think gives you more bang for your buck of the two?

 

[Ghosts Beer]

So we deal Voracek to make a place for Schenn? Color me confused

That's all you took out of my post? Because I'm pretty sure I gave a number of detailed reasons it makes sense to trade him.

 

[Sawdalite]

With all the negatives denoted... and concern some people have about Jake... I find it a sad commentary that we are speaking about the Flyers' Point Producing Leader this Season to-date... What does that say about the Team in general, when it comes to scoring?


I too personally have a low concern rating about Jake.. I feel his potential is still exceptional, and he has better Seasons ahead of him... which will most likely happen when the Flyers improve their overall Goal Production; Jake is an ASSist Man.

 

[Tripod]

I'd put Voracek at about the middle of the line-up in terms of being worried about them. He has to live up to big expectations. I was surprised by Tripod's stats for his point production because my takeaway from him this season is a horrible paraphrase from Macbeth: full of sound and fury signifying nothing. In other words, he often carries the puck like a bat out of hell, cycles it with determination, and then ... loses it, makes a bad pass, or fires a weak shot on net.

I love seeing Voracek out on the 3-on-3 because he can fly with the puck and generally makes good plays, but his 5-on-5 play hasn't been inspiring. And we won't talk about his contribution to PP1.

Hard to believe that Jake leads our team in 5vs5 in points.

We are a flawed team at ES.

 

[Rebels57]

which he's done twice in 9 seasons

I'm with you

Surely going back to his rookie year is skewing of the facts, wouldn't you agree?

He has performed at the level 2 times in the past 5 seasons, and last season he was playing at a PPG pace for almost 50 games after his slow start and before the foot injury.

 

[deadhead]

I think Jake may not be a good fit for this system b/c he likes to go East - West (cycle through the O-zone) and Hakstol wants his forwards to go North - South, driving into the O-zone, clearing out the blue line for a skilled defenseman to make plays (the fact that we're lack those defensemen right now doesn't matter, in two years all our defensemen will as good as Gudas or better).

I also don't think Voracek is comfortable reading the defensemen and falling back to protect them. He wants the puck and wants to focus on his offense. He likes to skate and pass, but that's getting tougher in today's NHL as teams close faster and block more shots. 5x5 he has the highest GA of the forwards at 3.19 per 60, Schenn 2.35, Couts is 2.42, Giroux 2.51, Konency 2.68. So he's scoring but he's also a reason the other team is scoring. He also has the highest GArel at 1.18 (PEB has the lowest, which is why he's on the ice with a lead).

And he hasn't found a line that works since Raffl got hurt, G & V don't work with Konency, ideally their LW would be a mucker who can shoot (get the puck in the corner, provide interference in the crease and be able to shoot when they pass him the puck). Lindblom might be that guy.

I think what we're seeing with Weise - Couts - Schenn is the ideal line for this scheme, physical, attacking the O-zone, beating people up, digging pucks out of the corner, creating scoring chances, shooting well. It's hard to make pretty plays in today's NHL, you need a lot of speed to get that kind of space and it doesn't last long. The WCS line pushes the defense toward the goal and frees up room for guys like Ghost to create on offense.

 

[tictactoe]

SCPTS is 7.7% this season. Last season was 5.2%.. Took about 250 SOG this season and over 200 lat season. Overrated and overpaid player that had not accomplished much.

 

[Striiker]

If I showed you a lineup of people, do you think you could pick out which one was Voracek?

 

[SportsPhan8]

13th in the league in late January, 40th in the league today

7 more years @ 8.25 million against the cap...

That's scary.

If he has a < 70 point season next yr, I'd trade him. If you're paying him that much money, you can't afford only getting a point production of around 55 from him. Giroux's been injured, so he has an excuse over Voracek, but both need to step it up, and limit the TOs.

 

[SportsPhan8]

If I showed you a lineup of people, do you think you could pick out which one was Voracek?

Probably, since he's too streaky.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

Had a career year, made out like a bandit and mailed it in and going through the motions. Such a shame every year isn't a contract year, maybe he would get off his ass and workout in summer.

 

[deadhead]

Now that's extreme, I don't see much evidence that he's "going through the motions," rather, that he had a fluke season and simply can't live up to inflated expectations. And that he's just not a good fit with this team right now, whether it's scheme, personnel or both.

 

[Sawdalite]

Now that's extreme, I don't see much evidence that he's "going through the motions," rather, that he had a fluke season and simply can't live up to inflated expectations. And that he's just not a good fit with this team right now, whether it's scheme, personnel or both.

This Player who is not a good fit is leading the Team in Points with two Games to go... He may be deemed to be overpaid in his Contract THIS Season, but he's actually doing quite well on this Team... when it comes to generation points over the course of the entire Season... and he is doing better than all but about 39 or so other NHL Players this Season as well.

 

[Tripod]

As I look back on the whole season, can I pinpoint games where Jake can pick up another 5-10 points? The answer is a simple yes. And that's where he needs to get to so it's not crazy to think he can't be a 70 point guy.

I know people want to look at his and G's contract and squawk, but BOTH players got good raises for being underpaid for previous years. Remember G finishing top 3 in scoring 2 times all while making less than 4 million? Well this contract is the evening out of him being underpaid those years. Same with Jake finishing top 5 in scoring while making 4.25 million.

But in the end, Jake is still our top point getter and really, he drives the play the most on our team. He has NO shot, which hurts his goals total. And our team lacks natural goal scorers which would help out all our pass first guys. He is also our top 5vs5 scorer.

As the salary cap keeps going up, you will see more and more bigger contracts. But I still think Jake can be a 70 point guy in this league which is what I expect of him. I also think next year he should be on pp #2 and Provy moved to the 1st unit in a ghosts spot, with Ghost moving to Jakes spot.

 

[deadhead]

You can say that for any forward, if PEB had ten more points he'd be a solid 4th liner!

Take away the one outlier season and Voracek is a 20-40 60 forward with average to subpar defense. He might do better with the right linemates, but so would more top 6 forwards - and I'm not sure the Flyers have those linemates for him (a big mucker/shooter at LW and a center who can shoot). In other words he's a $6M top 2nd line winger getting paid like an elite 1st line winger. That's Hextall's biggest mistake so far.

I think for Voracek to live up to his contract he needs to play with an edge and to focus on being more defensively responsible, and he needs to spend the summer shooting a 1,000 wrist shots a day until he develops at least an average shot from 20 feet.

 

[Appleyard]

Average to sub-par defense?

Outside of this season his defensive metrics since joining the Flyers have been good every year.

Raffl and Read are probably the only wingers who have played on the Flyers over the last few years who are better defensively than Jake at 5v5.

 

[Ghosts Beer]

Average to sub-par defense?

Outside of this season his defensive metrics since joining the Flyers have been good every year.

Raffl and Read are probably the only wingers who have played on the Flyers over the last few years who are better defensively than Jake at 5v5.

Voracek's defensive play has been so bad for most of this season that I think deadhead is right to criticize.

Not only has Jake been a .75 ppg player for his 2nd season in a row, he often has been a liability on top of it. How else do you explain a team-worst -24 for the season; -23 in 41 road games; and a by far team worst -12 in 29 games since Feb. 1 when the Flyers' other top players haven't struggled nearly the same? He continues to force many plays that aren't there, which results in danger the other way.

 

[deadhead]

By the numbers

GA GArel Tk/Gv CorsiRel E +/-
2016-17 3.19 1.18 21/39 1.3 -1.7
2015-16 1.92 -0.11 25/39 3.5 6.7
2014-15 1.82 -0.44 33/33 7.3 14.7
2013-14 1.87 -0.91 33/22 6.8
2012-13 3.24 0.82 19/19 6.9
2011-12 2.26 -0.16 28/28 2.0

There is no doubt Voracek CAN be a good defensive forward, but note how his GArel has steadily declined for the last three years, it's like he realized he'll get paid for offense and has become more indifferent and more careless with the puck as he tries to score. Since that peak season he's steadily declined the last two years in every measure.

Again, it's not that Voracek is a bad player, it's that he's "only" a good player, who is paid like an elite player. He should be better, maybe he needs a change of scenery. Or the right linemates, but unless Lindblom is the answer, he'll have to wait years for the next wave of kids to arrive. Because I don't see Weal or Konency at LW as a good fit for what he does. And I'm not sure he's really a good pairing with Giroux, someone has to shoot the damn puck! Raffl worked because he did the dirty work and covered for G & V defensively. But I think he's on the decline.