Jake Virtanen - Part 08

[Rex Banner]

I'd at least give Jake the rest of his 9 games. It took Horvat a while last season to be confident enough to actually want to carry the puck and make plays. Jake seems to be going through the same thing.

 

[arsmaster*]

Issue is Jake doesn't have defensive play and faceoffs to fall back on. He has to score or Dorsett. A lot more likely to Dorsett in 9 minutes when DD is getting 16 minutes. Lol.

 

[Jay Cee]

I have seen enough to say that it is worth while to keep Virty up and that he is NHL ready. He will grow in to some role with the team this year even if it is not with heavy offense right away.

 

[JanBulisPiggyBack]

Issue is Jake doesn't have defensive play and faceoffs to fall back on. He has to score or Dorsett. A lot more likely to Dorsett in 9 minutes when DD is getting 16 minutes. Lol.

I enjoy the score or Dorsett

I am sure you haven't patented it yet so.......it now belongs to me. Please consider this your first business lesson

Score or Dorsett (trademark of JanBulisPiggyBack Oct 24th 2015 )

 

[Hodgy]

First of all I disagree with your assessment of his play. Excluding last game (didn't watch) his play has been solid-to-good. I've seen you post about Jake in other threads and I can't say any of your assessments match mine.

Secondly saying he's "had 4 games" is disingenuous. He's had portions of 4 games. That isn't enough to get your head or legs fully immersed in the game. Any player will tell you that sitting for long stretches takes you out of your rhythm. It's why benching is such a punishment. So no, we haven't seen what Jake can do given he's only sporadically been given regular shifts.

But ya I don't expect you to agree as you clearly are watching a different game than I am with respect to this player.

This is just mind boggling to me. I am not sure how anyone could describe Virtanen's play as "solid to good". Him and Baertschi have both been poor in my opinion. Neither looks like an NHL player. McCann on the other hand has shown a lot more. Of course Ben Hutton is by far the most impressive of all the young players.

However, at the same time, I do think Desjardins usage of the young players has been poor.

 

[F A N]

This is just mind boggling to me. I am not sure how anyone could describe Virtanen's play as "solid to good".

I think the main thing is that he hasn't hurt us and as fans we love his potential. But if you look at things more closely, Virtanen has played limited minutes, has been below average against LA, good against St. Louis, okay against Edmonton, and bad against Washington. But again, he hasn't been on the ice for any goals against. It's like well he hasn't done anything particularly good or bad but he's talented so let's just give him a chance. At least that's my sentiment. But he has 5 games left and I hope he isn't kept beyond 9 games only to be sent back.

 

[Hodgy]

I think the main thing is that he hasn't hurt us and as fans we love his potential. But if you look at things more closely, Virtanen has played limited minutes, has been below average against LA, good against St. Louis, okay against Edmonton, and bad against Washington. But again, he hasn't been on the ice for any goals against. It's like well he hasn't done anything particularly good or bad but he's talented so let's just give him a chance. At least that's my sentiment. But he has 5 games left and I hope he isn't kept beyond 9 games only to be sent back.

I generally agree. I don't think he has been "terrible" or anything, and I do think Desjardins needs to be more patient with him, but I also don't really get the narrative that he, and Baertschi, somehow deserve more icetime due to their performances so far.

 

[racerjoe]

I generally agree. I don't think he has been "terrible" or anything, and I do think Desjardins needs to be more patient with him, but I also don't really get the narrative that he, and Baertschi, somehow deserve more icetime due to their performances so far.

Enough also can't tell me that dorsett and Proust deserve 16 mins.

 

[F A N]

I generally agree. I don't think he has been "terrible" or anything, and I do think Desjardins needs to be more patient with him, but I also don't really get the narrative that he, and Baertschi, somehow deserve more icetime due to their performances so far.

It's not about "deserving" more ice time per se. It's about steady minutes and being put in a position to succeed. The Sedins are a classic example. For years, Crawford just sent them out there pretty much without fail, especially on the 2nd unit PP. As rookies, they didn't play massive minutes or took a lot of shifts but it was consistent. Once Horvat gained Willie's trust, he received steady minutes and his development took off.

If it's about playing physical and defensively responsible, there's nothing wrong with Virtanen playing on the 4th line. But take a regular shift with the 4th line. It's not asking that much. Cracknell plays 11-12 minutes every game he has been in. No reason Virtanen or Baertschi can't get that instead of 8 or 9.

 

[Hodgy]

The major difference is that the Sedins and Horvat were markedly better than Virtanen to start their careers. Let's all face it: Virtanen is on the team because he was drafted 6th overall and Benning penciled him in. He didn't earn his spot and his preseason play should have resulted in him being sent back to junior.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

I generally agree. I don't think he has been "terrible" or anything, and I do think Desjardins needs to be more patient with him, but I also don't really get the narrative that he, and Baertschi, somehow deserve more icetime due to their performances so far.

Why are you talking about Baertschi in the Virtanen thread? Are they similar players? Was Virtanen force fed minutes on the 2cnd line? You don't get the narrative? The narrative is that he's a junior age player who could be actually playing hockey somewhere else instead of (mostly) watching hockey up here.

Once again, just like in last year's ahl playoffs, the guy with echl level defence hasn't been on the ice for a single goal against. His toi for the year is 33 minutes (McCann 47, Baertschi 53)...either play him or send him down (same for McCann).

At least when they have splinter related ass injuries, they can go to Utica and play some real minutes on a rehab stint. Worked well for Horvat last year....

 

[Andy Dufresne]

The major difference is that the Sedins and Horvat were markedly better than Virtanen to start their careers. Let's all face it: Virtanen is on the team because he was drafted 6th overall and Benning penciled him in. He didn't earn his spot and his preseason play should have resulted in him being sent back to junior.

No, actually they weren't better. If you were old enough you would remember the pissing and moaning about how bad the Sedins suck. I was a registered user here back then, and I left...because I couldn't take the negativity. You think Horvat's first 33 minutes in this league were good?

Virtanen (and McCann) made this team based on their play in the preseason. You didn't watch those games??? or what??? Then again so did Biega, and probably Gaunce as well. I'm assuming if Virtanen and McCann were AHL eligible they would be playing there right now...

 

[Pip]

Should get sent back unless he turns a corner in his remaining games. At this stage, going to Calgary and the World Juniors could do a lot of good for his game.

 

[Tiranis]

Should get sent back unless he turns a corner in his remaining games. At this stage, going to Calgary and the World Juniors could do a lot of good for his game.

This whole experiment has been beyond stupid. Virtanen doesn't look ready but Willie also isn't giving him room to develop through that. He should be playing in junior where he can actually work on his offensive skills. That's what I want to see improve. I couldn't care less whether he can improve his defensive or physical game, we didn't draft him 6th overall for that.

 

[Hodgy]

No, actually they weren't better. If you were old enough you would remember the pissing and moaning about how bad the Sedins suck. I was a registered user here back then, and I left...because I couldn't take the negativity. You think Horvat's first 33 minutes in this league were good?

Virtanen (and McCann) made this team based on their play in the preseason. You didn't watch those games??? or what??? Then again so did Biega, and probably Gaunce as well. I'm assuming if Virtanen and McCann were AHL eligible they would be playing there right now...

No, actually they weren't better. If you were old enough you would remember the pissing and moaning about how bad the Sedins suck. I was a registered user here back then, and I left...because I couldn't take the negativity. You think Horvat's first 33 minutes in this league were good?

Virtanen (and McCann) made this team based on their play in the preseason. You didn't watch those games??? or what??? Then again so did Biega, and probably Gaunce as well. I'm assuming if Virtanen and McCann were AHL eligible they would be playing there right now...

I disagree with almost everything you have stated. I did watch the Sedins when they broke into the league. You are correct that they attracted heavy criticism but the expectations were entirely different. The Sedins were drafted 2nd and 3rd overall. People expected allstars straight away. But the fact that they were heavily criticized does not mean they were not playing better than Virtanen has thus far. Daniel Sedin scored 20 goals in his rookie season. Think about that for a moment and consider whether Virtanen has a hope in hell of achieving that. Put simply, the Sedins were far and away better players in their rookie seasons than Virtanen has been so far.

Ditto with Horvat. While Horvat and Virtanen's offensive impact was similar, Horvat was better defensive and more dependable player from the get go. Moreover, Horvat was excellent in the faceoff circle from the beginning and was able to contribute that way. There really isn't much of a comparison between the two players.

Lastly, I disagree that Virtanen earned a spot based on his camp. I think his pre-season was decidedly average, and in fact, was probably below average. He basically had one good game against a defensively poor Oilers team. The fact of the matter is that Virtanen was penciled in to make the team from the very beginning. As I have stated in the past, it is hard to recall a less deserving rookie make the team.

 

[biturbo19]

This whole experiment has been beyond stupid. Virtanen doesn't look ready but Willie also isn't giving him room to develop through that. He should be playing in junior where he can actually work on his offensive skills. That's what I want to see improve. I couldn't care less whether he can improve his defensive or physical game, we didn't draft him 6th overall for that.

I mean, the defensive side of the game, that's something he's eventually going to have to really learn anyway...but that's something most young players have to learn at the Pro level. It's a different game.

But i'd much prefer to have Virtanen come in with an offensive side and an offense-oriented approach to the game that's ready for the NHL to help offset the learning process defensively.


The frustrating thing about this is that if they're going to keep Virtanen up here for the "audition"...i want to see what he can do with a bit of rope. I don't want to see them trying to coach him to be a 6 minute a game 4th line grinder. That's not constructive for a player like this. I want to see what happens if you send him out as a legitimate top-6 player. If they're not ready to audition that, then just send him back.

Right now, this is a waste of everyone's time. WillieD wants a low-minute crash-bang winger, call up Kenins and be done with it.

 

[The Jesus*]

This whole experiment has been beyond stupid. Virtanen doesn't look ready but Willie also isn't giving him room to develop through that. He should be playing in junior where he can actually work on his offensive skills. That's what I want to see improve. I couldn't care less whether he can improve his defensive or physical game, we didn't draft him 6th overall for that.

Pretty much. He needs to turn into a consistent 25-30 goal scorer for that to not be a completely wasted pick (Ehlers is looking unreal. Nylander ripping up the AHL again). He won't do that here now, he isn't ready.

Go to junior. Improve his offense, then give him another go next year. Not holding my breath that he amounts to anything other than a grinder. But hopefully he picks it up.

 

[F A N]

Pretty much. He needs to turn into a consistent 25-30 goal scorer for that to not be a completely wasted pick (Ehlers is looking unreal. Nylander ripping up the AHL again). He won't do that here now, he isn't ready.

Richie is ripping up the AHL and Dylan Larkin has been sensational. Damn

 

[y2kcanucks]

Issue is Jake doesn't have defensive play and faceoffs to fall back on. He has to score or Dorsett. A lot more likely to Dorsett in 9 minutes when DD is getting 16 minutes. Lol.

How is he going to score when he plays 5 minutes a game?

 

[Alpha]

How is he going to score when he plays 5 minutes a game?

Million dollar question.

 

[thedean]

I don't know how any of you can form such a strong opinion on him one way or the other. He's played something like a total of 40 minutes of hockey. Everyone's an expert I guess

 

[Zarpan]

I generally agree. I don't think he has been "terrible" or anything, and I do think Desjardins needs to be more patient with him, but I also don't really get the narrative that he, and Baertschi, somehow deserve more icetime due to their performances so far.

I think he deserves more than 8 minutes per game... Given that its early in the regular season, that's the level of icetime that terrible players get. He's barely getting more than Colton Orr got when he played.

Not sure what the harm is in giving him 12 minutes or so. Any player who looks okay probably should get at least 10-12 minutes in this early part of the season.

 

[opendoor]

Just a hunch and I could be totally wrong, but I suspect Virtanen is already penciled in for the year and that's why they're not worried about actually getting him minutes in his first 9 games. McCann is on more of an audition so he's getting the minutes to show what he can and can't do, but Baertschi and Virtanen have arguably had their spots on the whiteboard locked in since last season so they can be treated differently.

 

[Hollywood Burrows]

As Tiranis mentioned above, the entire thing is botched. He doesn't deserve to be on the team, but if he's on the team he should be playing. Honestly I don't think it matters for his development, because he's never going to be a top-6 player. The vision and pace (I mean pace with the puck on his stick, decision making, etc. not skating) aren't there. I hope I'm wrong. Just send him back to junior and hope he figure it out (he won't)

 

[Drop the Sopel]

Just a hunch and I could be totally wrong, but I suspect Virtanen is already penciled in for the year and that's why they're not worried about actually getting him minutes in his first 9 games. McCann is on more of an audition so he's getting the minutes to show what he can and can't do, but Baertschi and Virtanen have arguably had their spots on the whiteboard locked in since last season so they can be treated differently.

Let's not forget Vey had his spot locked in too.

McCann is probably playing more than Virtanen because he's playing better. The puck follows McCann a lot more than it does with Virtanen at this point. Virtanen has the size and strength advantage, but if they don't plan on shipping a veteran like Higgins out once he returns, there is just too much quality depth up front to get Virtanen the minutes he will need to stay up.

I think Virtanen gets sent down, or Higgins dealt early in the year.