Jake Virtanen - Part 08

[Scurr]

Usually I can sympathize with Willie and understand why and how he uses veteran players. But Virtanen's usage was very odd last night. He had like 3 shifts in the 3rd period and one of them was most of the last minute of the game. He's too much of a liability to have out there in a tie game or down by one, but he's a guy to have out there in the last minute of the game? I don't get it. See what happens over the next few games but they should just send him down and let him play in the WJC if the plan is to play him 7 random minutes a night.

As soon as they went down a goal Virtanen got back into the rotation. There's nothing random about it. Tied or up a goal WD is going to lean on the vets until the kids earn his trust.

 

[Reign Nateo]

As soon as they went down a goal Virtanen got back into the rotation. There's nothing random about it. Tied or up a goal WD is going to lean on the vets until the kids earn his trust.

I can sympathize with Willie, I really can, but some of his usage seems pretty strange to me. In the playoffs against Calgary he refused to do anything but roll the lines over 1-2-3-4, no matter how Hartley adjusted. Now, in October, he's shortening the bench because the Caps did? Plus if guys he likes show that they are even slightly capable, he puts them out there as much as possible. I just don't get how you can not trust a player when you are tied or ahead, but you want him out there for the last minute of the game when you're behind. He deserves more than 13 short shifts a game. Maybe not random, and I get what you're saying, but definitely suspect.

 

[y2kcanucks]

As soon as they went down a goal Virtanen got back into the rotation. There's nothing random about it. Tied or up a goal WD is going to lean on the vets until the kids earn his trust.

So Dorsett who got completely victimized last night deserved more ice-time than the kids who were treading water because....? Because he's a 30 year old veteran? It makes zero sense any way you try to spin it.

 

[Intangibos]

How about this, is Dorsett a superior hockey player to Virtanen? Is he better offensively? Is he better defensively? Is he better at maintaining possession? Even if he were better at these things than Virtanen, it's marginal at best, and I'm not even the biggest Virtanen fan.

It's sad that Virtanen has to be miles ahead of Dorsett to 'earn the coach's trust', because he's young. Dorsett just isn't a very good hockey player. I like the guy as a 12/13 forward but right now we have Virtanen who can play the same minutes as Dorsett adequately and develop while doing so. We're not talking about benching a solid vet like Richardson to give McCann a spot, we're talking about cutting back on marginal players in Dorsett and Prust to give some more time to the kids.

 

[Jyrki21]

As soon as they went down a goal Virtanen got back into the rotation. There's nothing random about it. Tied or up a goal WD is going to lean on the vets until the kids earn his trust.

The game begins in a 0-0 tie. Surrendering a goal in the first period will harm your scoreline just as much as surrendering it later on. When is it ever safe to play him, then? If he can score, can't he offset whatever negative impact he might have? How will he overcome this negative impact if not by playing?

At some point it's just math.

 

[Ryp37]

Jake Virtanen, he's just not ready

great hair though

 

[CanaFan]

Jake Virtanen, he's just not ready

great hair though

Honestly can't say if he's ready or not. Hard to get a read on a player who gets 7-9 minutes a game and sits for 10-15 stretches. Take a game, give him 12-13 mins at regular intervals and base a judgement on that. If he's ready, then make a call on Higgins or Hansen. If he's not then return him to Calgary and get on with your vet-laden season. At the moment Willie is doing neither and it's a waste.

 

[Intangibos]

Jake Virtanen, he's just not ready

great hair though

 

[sting101]

The game begins in a 0-0 tie. Surrendering a goal in the first period will harm your scoreline just as much as surrendering it later on. When is it ever safe to play him, then? If he can score, can't he offset whatever negative impact he might have? How will he overcome this negative impact if not by playing?

At some point it's just math.

I agree
While I feel it's certainly important to manage match ups so as to keep players from being exposed. It's ridiculous that a McCann, Virtanen or Baertschi needs to be benched for entire periods when they decide to start a game with them.
Willie is really struggling with the very concept you outlined. And he's either at odds with management about his roster players or showing a disturbing ineptitude with his player deployment.

 

[sting101]

Honestly can't say if he's ready or not. Hard to get a read on a player who gets 7-9 minutes a game and sits for 10-15 stretches. Take a game, give him 12-13 mins at regular intervals and base a judgement on that. If he's ready, then make a call on Higgins or Hansen. If he's not then return him to Calgary and get on with your vet-laden season. At the moment Willie is doing neither and it's a waste.

Exactly

 

[MS]

I can sympathize with Willie, I really can, but some of his usage seems pretty strange to me. In the playoffs against Calgary he refused to do anything but roll the lines over 1-2-3-4, no matter how Hartley adjusted. Now, in October, he's shortening the bench because the Caps did? Plus if guys he likes show that they are even slightly capable, he puts them out there as much as possible. I just don't get how you can not trust a player when you are tied or ahead, but you want him out there for the last minute of the game when you're behind. He deserves more than 13 short shifts a game. Maybe not random, and I get what you're saying, but definitely suspect.

Yeah, it's just .... bizarre.

Willie makes zero effort to get any sort of matchup in the playoffs and just lets himself get destroyed, and then in October is just completely 180 degrees the other direction and completely hypersensitive to matchups.

We had last change. It shouldn't have been hard to get some decent matchups for those guys.

It isn't rocket science. October is when you roll 4 lines and keep everyone fresh. April is when you pile icetime on your top guys and look for every matchup possible.

16 minutes of Dorsett and Prust is just inexcusable. On every level.

Moreover, if matchups in this game are that important, why on earth are Luca Sbisa and Matt Bartkowski getting more ES icetime than Edler and Tanev?

 

[Get North]

Honestly can't say if he's ready or not. Hard to get a read on a player who gets 7-9 minutes a game and sits for 10-15 stretches. Take a game, give him 12-13 mins at regular intervals and base a judgement on that. If he's ready, then make a call on Higgins or Hansen. If he's not then return him to Calgary and get on with your vet-laden season. At the moment Willie is doing neither and it's a waste.

He's had 4 games to prove himself in the regular season and he hasn't looked good at all. Why would the coach put him out there if he's not giving the best chance to win? He's also struggling defensively, chasing the puck and cheating offensively. Willie isn't going to sacrifice development for games especially with a teamful of veterans wanting to win.

 

[VanJack]

It's hard to get a read on players when you're watching the games on TV, and doubly hard when a guy only gets seven minutes a night...but is Virtanen really a worse player than Prust right now?...and does it make sense for Virtanen to get parked for the third period and for Prust to get the same amount of ice time as the Sedins?

 

[lush]

Honestly can't say if he's ready or not. Hard to get a read on a player who gets 7-9 minutes a game and sits for 10-15 stretches. Take a game, give him 12-13 mins at regular intervals and base a judgement on that. If he's ready, then make a call on Higgins or Hansen. If he's not then return him to Calgary and get on with your vet-laden season. At the moment Willie is doing neither and it's a waste.

Was it a waste for Horvat last year as well? Same thing was going on at this juncture one calendar year ago

 

[Ryp37]

Was it a waste for Horvat last year as well? Same thing was going on at this juncture one calendar year ago

Horvat was actually playing in the third periods though. This teams stuck between trying to win and trying to develop, they don't have the talent to do both so they have to pick one

 

[CanaFan]

He's had 4 games to prove himself in the regular season and he hasn't looked good at all. Why would the coach put him out there if he's not giving the best chance to win? He's also struggling defensively, chasing the puck and cheating offensively. Willie isn't going to sacrifice development for games especially with a teamful of veterans wanting to win.

First of all I disagree with your assessment of his play. Excluding last game (didn't watch) his play has been solid-to-good. I've seen you post about Jake in other threads and I can't say any of your assessments match mine.

Secondly saying he's "had 4 games" is disingenuous. He's had portions of 4 games. That isn't enough to get your head or legs fully immersed in the game. Any player will tell you that sitting for long stretches takes you out of your rhythm. It's why benching is such a punishment. So no, we haven't seen what Jake can do given he's only sporadically been given regular shifts.

But ya I don't expect you to agree as you clearly are watching a different game than I am with respect to this player.

 

[fancouver]

Jake looks ready to play minimum 10 minutes a game on the 4th line right now. That's how you can 'develop' a player. Ice time and lots of it. Sitting on the bench watching Prust and Dorsett play isn't going to make you a better NHLer.

I have a feeling he's going to be sent back to junior along with McCann.

Higgins is on his way back and we already have Cracknell scratched.

 

[Peen]

Need to keep fourteen forwards up. They've got 14 including Higgins currently. I think one goes down.

 

[CanaFan]

Was it a waste for Horvat last year as well? Same thing was going on at this juncture one calendar year ago

Eh I'd say we got a bit lucky with Horvat tbh. I think he thrived despite Willie's stapling him to the bench early on, not because of it. It certainly isn't how I've seen other rookies be developed in this team in the past and I have no reason to think Willie is suddenly on to some secret way of developing players by not playing them.

 

[CanaFan]

Jake looks ready to play minimum 10 minutes a game on the 4th line right now. That's how you can 'develop' a player. Ice time and lots of it. Sitting on the bench watching Prust and Dorsett play isn't going to make you a better NHLer.

I have a feeling he's going to be sent back to junior along with McCann.

Higgins is on his way back and we already have Cracknell scratched.

TBH I hope that both Jake and McCann are sent down. They will get what they need most with their jr clubs, namely copious ice time to play and further grow their skills. It's clear they won't get it here with a coach that thinks playing Derek Dorsett 16 minutes a game is the way to win games. I mean it's obviously not either in theory or in practice but I doubt Willie is going to realize that until we are bounced in 6 games to a team lower in the standings to us again. At least this way I can watch our prospects play hockey and stop letting Willie's love affair with mediocre players annoy me. In fact I'll probably root for it as he drives this team to a top 10 pick.

 

[fancouver]

Need to keep fourteen forwards up. They've got 14 including Higgins currently. I think one goes down.

But in terms of position, where does McCann fit? You already have: Henrik, Sutter, Horvat and Cracknell down the middle. McCann is not going to replace any of the 3, so do you want to really develop a sniper with Prust and Dorsett? At this point, Canucks are probably going to bring up Vey and call it a day.

 

[WTG]

But in terms of position, where does McCann fit? You already have: Henrik, Sutter, Horvat and Cracknell down the middle. McCann is not going to replace any of the 3, so do you want to really develop a sniper with Prust and Dorsett? At this point, Canucks are probably going to bring up Vey and call it a day.

Friesen should be called up before Vey IMO.

Vey has been really bad in Utica.

 

[Get North]

First of all I disagree with your assessment of his play. Excluding last game (didn't watch) his play has been solid-to-good. I've seen you post about Jake in other threads and I can't say any of your assessments match mine.

Secondly saying he's "had 4 games" is disingenuous. He's had portions of 4 games. That isn't enough to get your head or legs fully immersed in the game. Any player will tell you that sitting for long stretches takes you out of your rhythm. It's why benching is such a punishment. So no, we haven't seen what Jake can do given he's only sporadically been given regular shifts.

But ya I don't expect you to agree as you clearly are watching a different game than I am with respect to this player.

Maybe my expectations are higher but he's not good defensively and never was. So when he's in the defensive zone he is not contributing at all. He's never made any noticeable plays other than hits which is good but I expect more than a 4th line banger from Virtanen this season. He hasn't created more than 1-2 chances this season and he's chasing the puck in his own-end.

He's not going to get top 6 ice-time in the 4 games, everybody knows that. Willie treats everybody fairly, Virtanen earns his own ice-time from the ice-time he gets. 8 minutes is enough to show that he can handle more ice-time, he clearly didn't deserve more ice-time from last game because he was in his own end the whole time. He actually did get regular shifts in the 1st and 2nd periods and what did he do to earn more? Nothing. I think a lot of people need to understand that you don't get handed 10-12 minutes of ice-time, you have to at least be positive if you want more ice-time. Virtanen wasn't. Ice-time isn't handed on this team, you earn it with what you get and Virtanen didn't earn another game after his game last night. It's that simple, everyone gets treated the same.

 

[NuxFan09]

Friesen should be called up before Vey IMO.

Vey has been really bad in Utica.

I agree. Friesen would be a great call-up! He didn't get much of a chance in preseason, yet still scored a goal, and he strikes me as that elusive home grown 4th line energy player that this organization has seemingly been looking for forever. He's looking like he could be a great 4th line centre but we won't know until he gets in some NHL action.

 

[alternate]

Willie is giving him the Horvat treatment. Hopefully, Virtanen can earn Willie's trust.

Agreed. When it comes to Willie behind the bench, how he's bringing along the teenagers is the least of my worries.

So Dorsett who got completely victimized last night deserved more ice-time than the kids who were treading water because....? Because he's a 30 year old veteran? It makes zero sense any way you try to spin it.

Still early and Willie is trying to find this roster's equilibrium. Good opportunity for the coach to see what he has in Dorsett/Prust against a quality team from the other conference.

TBH I hope that both Jake and McCann are sent down. They will get what they need most with their jr clubs, namely copious ice time to play and further grow their skills. It's clear they won't get it here with a coach that thinks playing Derek Dorsett 16 minutes a game is the way to win games. I mean it's obviously not either in theory or in practice but I doubt Willie is going to realize that until we are bounced in 6 games to a team lower in the standings to us again. At least this way I can watch our prospects play hockey and stop letting Willie's love affair with mediocre players annoy me. In fact I'll probably root for it as he drives this team to a top 10 pick.

I think both get more *at this point* playing 8-10 mins in the NHL than playing 22 (lazy) minutes in junior. As the season moves along I want those minutes to be consistently 10-12+ per game with some PP time as well. But right now, they're just getting their feet wet as professionals. I don't mind easing them in while they adjust to the speed of this level--don't think either has yet. If they want Dorsett's ice time, they need to match his compete level.

I'm happy with Virtanen's play so far. Hard for a coach to work in two 19 year olds, but I expect both will see increased opportunities before too long. As far as Virtanen specifically, I'd like to see him start cracking 10mins consistently, but imo the first 15 or so games of the season I'm not worried about. To my eyes he's made at least a couple positive plays every game. I'll be surprised if he's sent down.