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Jake Virtanen - Part 08

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sting101

sting101

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Feb 8, 2012
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Connor McHindu said:
Can Jake Virtanen duplicate the success of Bo Horvat's 2014/2015 campaign?

Obviously, what Horvat did last season is not very common, but do you guys think Virtanen has a legit chance of doing the same thing?

If I was WD, here is how I would role out the lines:

Sedin-Sedin-Vrbata
Burrows-Sutter-Hansen
Baertschi-Horvat-Virtanen
Prust-Vey-Dorsett (I'm hoping that one of Gaunce or Cassels can beat out Vey).

Edler-Tanev
Hamhuis-Corrado
Sbisa-Weber

Miller
Markstrom

I think the Sedin line will continue to be a solid 1st line, while the Sutter and Prust/Dorsett line will be extremely good shut down lines (with Sutter's line having the ability to chip in offensively on semi-regular occasion).

That leaves Horvat's line to be the wildcard line. Maybe it's just me, but I think Horvat and Baertschi will play well above expectations this year and may even supplant Sutter's line as the team's official 2nd line. The question that I have, is if Virtanen can get good enough to a point where he can ride shotgun with Horvat/Baertschi (two guys who I think will take a significant leap).
Click to expand...
Higgins???
 

WhoseLainesItAnyway

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Sep 20, 2014
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arsmaster said:
This is exactly what he needs to do, learn to play a team game.

And can we please drop the "without any capable linemates" ********?

http://whl.ca/stats/show/skaters/249/0/202
http://whl.ca/standings/show/ls_season/249/subtype/25
Click to expand...

I won't drop it because it's true. If you actually watched any of his games you would've seen, in frustrating detail, that his line mates were not even close to being on the same level. They would barely ever do anything when given a pass other than turn it over. Trying to pass in that situation is akin to an intentional turnover. Any player who wants to win games who has Virtanen's abilities would opt for the solo rush instead since it yields a better chance at creating goals.

Canucks Army said:
[Virtanen's] estimated Quality of Teammates is quite low at 0.59, which is in the bottom 3rd of the league

...

[Virtanen]'s third among all Hitmen forwards in Goals Created per Game.
Click to expand...

http://canucksarmy.com/2015/2/17/canucks-army-midterm-prospect-rankings-2-jake-virtanen
 
StrictlyCommercial

StrictlyCommercial

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Oct 28, 2006
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JV is unlikely to get more than 9 games barring injuries. Kenins is a better fit for the 13th forward spot.

He'll have to pass a Benning acquisition with WD as coach to stick. Seems unlikely.
 

arsmaster*

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Jannik Handsome said:
I won't drop it because it's true. If you actually watched any of his games you would've seen, in frustrating detail, that his line mates were not even close to being on the same level. They would barely ever do anything when given a pass other than turn it over. Trying to pass in that situation is akin to an intentional turnover. Any player who wants to win games who has Virtanen's abilities would opt for the solo rush instead since it yields a better chance at creating goals.



http://canucksarmy.com/2015/2/17/canucks-army-midterm-prospect-rankings-2-jake-virtanen
Click to expand...

It's not true. I watched plenty of games. I've been following this kid closely since he hit the WHL. The Hitmen are a good team, Jake Virtanen is hard to play with.

He didn't do much at the WJC either with much better linemates. He has issues and he's not easy to play with.
 

Reign Nateo

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Apr 28, 2003
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Wayne Maki said:
Not sure why people put stock into eTOI. Those numbers are extremely flawed.
Click to expand...

arsmaster said:
He doesn't PK (which he did a bit in his draft year and his 16 year old season).

Although I don't really like the ETOI data and don't trust it.
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You don't trust the data but are willing to use it against him with your first sentence? TOI stats are flawed but you can trust the PK numbers?!?

The validity of the WHL's TOI stats are not the point whatsoever. Whatever way you want to dissect it, he was a secondary option for the Hitmen last year, and his production was not where it needed to be.

Figuring out 'why' is impossible and useless at this point. All that matters is what he does from here on out. His numbers looked poor, there are factors that can at least shed some light on why, but the future remains a question mark.

My frustration lies in the people that have never given him a chance because the wanted Ehlers/Nylander at the draft. There is a large faction of fans that seems more concerned with being smarter than Benning than the Canucks and Virtanen succeeding.

I've had the opportunity to see him a bit closer than most and I have no doubt he will be an NHL player. Worthy of going 6th overall I don't know. But judging by the general mood towards him a lot of people will be surprised with what they see from him this fall. Starting tomorrow I guess!
 

arsmaster*

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Reign Nateo said:
You don't trust the data but are willing to use it against him with your first sentence? TOI stats are flawed but you can trust the PK numbers?!?

The validity of the WHL's TOI stats are not the point whatsoever. Whatever way you want to dissect it, he was a secondary option for the Hitmen last year, and his production was not where it needed to be.

Figuring out 'why' is impossible and useless at this point. All that matters is what he does from here on out. His numbers looked poor, there are factors that can at least shed some light on why, but the future remains a question mark.

My frustration lies in the people that have never given him a chance because the wanted Ehlers/Nylander at the draft. There is a large faction of fans that seems more concerned with being smarter than Benning than the Canucks and Virtanen succeeding.

I've had the opportunity to see him a bit closer than most and I have no doubt he will be an NHL player. Worthy of going 6th overall I don't know. But judging by the general mood towards him a lot of people will be surprised with what they see from him this fall. Starting tomorrow I guess!
Click to expand...
I know from watching and reading that he doesn't PK.

I watch more CHL hockey than NHL, obviously not in the rink like you though. I didn't even bother to look up his ETOI, because I KNOW he doesn't PK.

Don't be frustrated with me. I've been a big fan of the kid for awhile and I like him a lot, I'm just not going to sugar coat stuff because we drafted him.
 
Pip

Pip

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Feb 2, 2012
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Connor McHindu said:
Obviously, what Horvat did last season is not very common, but do you guys think Virtanen has a legit chance of doing the same thing?
Click to expand...

Nope, Horvat is a special player and was far more pro ready with more of a translatable skillset. Also, stop puttitng titles on all of your posts.
 

arsmaster*

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Reign Nateo said:
If anything, people on the whole have been very critical of Jake. No one has sugar-coated anything.
Click to expand...

I disagree. There are still people who like to blame his teammates, his coach, his injury for HIS own problems. Quotes like "nothing left to learn in the WHL" is sugar coating how good he is.

I think there is obviously a lot of resentment towards the pick (I liked Ritchie as a prospect better, but I like Jake's ceiling more) but there are two sides here.
 

HankNDank

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Oct 25, 2013
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Reign Nateo said:
You don't trust the data but are willing to use it against him with your first sentence? TOI stats are flawed but you can trust the PK numbers?!?

The validity of the WHL's TOI stats are not the point whatsoever. Whatever way you want to dissect it, he was a secondary option for the Hitmen last year, and his production was not where it needed to be.

Figuring out 'why' is impossible and useless at this point. All that matters is what he does from here on out. His numbers looked poor, there are factors that can at least shed some light on why, but the future remains a question mark.

My frustration lies in the people that have never given him a chance because the wanted Ehlers/Nylander at the draft. There is a large faction of fans that seems more concerned with being smarter than Benning than the Canucks and Virtanen succeeding.

I've had the opportunity to see him a bit closer than most and I have no doubt he will be an NHL player. Worthy of going 6th overall I don't know. But judging by the general mood towards him a lot of people will be surprised with what they see from him this fall. Starting tomorrow I guess!
Click to expand...

These same people have 0 impact on what Virtanen is or will become as a player, and also have 0 impact on the decisions that management makes on his development. If HF posters aren't giving him a chance, who cares? Either they will be proven right in a few years, or they will be proven wrong, but in either case, they are not steering the ship, they are mere passengers.
 

MS

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Mar 18, 2002
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Jannik Handsome said:
I won't drop it because it's true. If you actually watched any of his games you would've seen, in frustrating detail, that his line mates were not even close to being on the same level. They would barely ever do anything when given a pass other than turn it over. Trying to pass in that situation is akin to an intentional turnover. Any player who wants to win games who has Virtanen's abilities would opt for the solo rush instead since it yields a better chance at creating goals.

http://canucksarmy.com/2015/2/17/canucks-army-midterm-prospect-rankings-2-jake-virtanen
Click to expand...

I've seen him play a ton and literally could not disagree more. If anything, Virtanen doesn't think the game to the level of his linemates. Great individual talent who doesn't work well with linemates at all.

arsmaster said:
I disagree. There are still people who like to blame his teammates, his coach, his injury for HIS own problems. Quotes like "nothing left to learn in the WHL" is sugar coating how good he is.

I think there is obviously a lot of resentment towards the pick (I liked Ritchie as a prospect better, but I like Jake's ceiling more) but there are two sides here.
Click to expand...

For me, it's separating not liking the pick from not liking the player.

To me, right now, it's a botched pick of the most important selection the team had in 15 years. But if we'd taken Virtanen at #22 overall or something, I'd be absolutely stoked to have him in the system - a Kreider-type fast, physical middle-6 winger is a fine asset.

And yeah, the excuses and 'too good for the WHL' stuff are a bit tiresome. He didn't have a good year there at all, that falls on him, and if he goes back he still has plenty to learn.
 
Intangibos

Intangibos

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I think Virtanen is an okay pick, but I would have liked Nylander or Ehlers better. Powerforwards with speed and hands don't come around often, but Ehlers and Nylander have real star potential.

I think with a 6th overall pick after having late picks for the past 8 years or something, you swing for the fences and take the skill guy to build around. Virtanen, unless he really develops unexpectedly, will never be that core guy you build the team around.

I do think it's more likely that Nylander or Ehlers bust, Virtanen is a pretty safe bet to be an NHL player in some capacity, but we're a team that needs to go through a rebuild anyway, we don't need Virtanen to be a contributor on the 3rd line when hes 20.
 

WhoseLainesItAnyway

Registered User
Sep 20, 2014
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arsmaster said:
It's not true. I watched plenty of games. I've been following this kid closely since he hit the WHL. The Hitmen are a good team, Jake Virtanen is hard to play with.

He didn't do much at the WJC either with much better linemates. He has issues and he's not easy to play with.
Click to expand...

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree however there's a difference between Junior and Pro. I didn't find Virtanen to have any difficulty with linemates when he played in the AHL with pros.

MS said:
I've seen him play a ton and literally could not disagree more. If anything, Virtanen doesn't think the game to the level of his linemates. Great individual talent who doesn't work well with linemates at all.
Click to expand...

He's not a cerebral player and I don't see why he has to be in order to be considered a successful pick.

I understand the bias toward intelligent players here but in reality good instincts are just as important. A player with good offensive instincts (which Virtanen has in spades - see his WJC goal where he scores with a lightning fast reaction at a near impossible angle off a board bounce) will still produce well once they've got their positioning down even if they aren't the smartest players.

Factoring his killer instinct in with his shot, speed, and physicality - people should be optimistic and excited about the player we have rather than sulk and gallivant about after the Ehlander hype train.
 
GPNuck

GPNuck

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Nov 25, 2013
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bingbing said:
Coming from multiple sources from people that know him. Virtanen's a weirdo
Click to expand...

My buddy met Jake and said he is a great kid with a great attitude and couldn't be happier about being drafted by the Canucks.. Who are your sources? Just curious
 
Jimson Hogarth*

Jimson Hogarth*

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HankNDank said:
These same people have 0 impact on what Virtanen is or will become as a player, and also have 0 impact on the decisions that management makes on his development. If HF posters aren't giving him a chance, who cares? Either they will be proven right in a few years, or they will be proven wrong, but in either case, they are not steering the ship, they are mere passengers.
Click to expand...

If the fan base isn't giving rookies a chance it's a big problem. Fan entitlement is a huge problem in Canadian hockey city's
 
Jimson Hogarth*

Jimson Hogarth*

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Nov 21, 2013
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**** I can't wait to watch Virt and Cassels make McDavid their *****c for the next decade.

I wanna see Virt lay a lick like that every game against the oilers...McJesus already hearing footsteps.
 
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