Player Discussion Jake Virtanen (MOD WARNING POST 755)

[MS]

How did master drafter Elmer screw up this pick so badly? I thought his drafting was supposed to be considered good? It's not even a hindsight issue; if you average the draft rankings below, he would have been slated to go around 10th overall - and this doesn't even factor in Button's list in having him in the 2nd round.

2014 NHL Draft Prospect Rankings

At least Jimbo was smart enough to know Virtanen wouldn't amount to much and didn't extend him to a stupid contract or anything.

The thing about those rankings is that they were all compiled *before* Virtanen suffered major shoulder injury that required pre-draft reconstructive surgery. A healthy Virtanen at #6 would be one thing. A broken Virtanen with a major injury issue is another one completely. That injury should have dropped him several places in rankings and in the draft.

The team basically repeated the JJ Daigneault on crutches deal by drafting damaged goods with a top-10 pick.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

The decision to draft Virtanen was always high risk with the hope of high reward. The Canucks grabbed him right where a lot of consensus draft rankings had him ranked, so he wasn’t the reach that say, Juolevi was. Virtanen was that potential grand slam power forward who could skate, shoot, and bulldoze his way through players.

Unfortunately, he hasn’t panned out - and for a top 10 pick, that’s a really big swing and a miss.

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

Pretty sure his shoulder injury was after they drafted him:
https://www.hockeysfuture.com/articles/114049/hitmen-forward-virtanens-shoulder-looking-just-fine/

This is fun: Why the Young Stars Tournament Proved Jake Virtanen is Better than Nicolaj Ehlers #MyColumn

 

[Hit the post]

Ron Dolorme really liked Jake in practice.

 

[MS]

Pretty sure his shoulder injury was after they drafted him:
Hitmen forward Virtanen’s shoulder looking just fine - Hockey's Future

This is fun: Why the Young Stars Tournament Proved Jake Virtanen is Better than Nicolaj Ehlers #MyColumn

Nope. This is a month before the draft.

Virtanen out 4-6 months after shoulder surgery

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

I think most would agree that Virtanen is fragile and his play ebbs and wanes with his confidence.
Last year seemed like a turning point, he scored 18 goals in a shortened season and was doing it playing with some pretty shabby linemates most of the time. He was finally elevated to the second power play unit and looked like he was coming around. He moved to Kelowna in the off season to train with Meyers and Weber and the rest and was supposedly poised to take the next step. He comes to training camp and, finally, for the first time passes the fitness tests. Then the season starts and for the first 20 games the Canucks languish and Virtanen barely gets on the ice, he never plays on the second power play and the season is basically over by the time they turn it around at Game 22 when Greener finally changes their system of play. Yet Virtanen is still getting splinters on the bench. When he does play he looks lost. People start to pile on, the Coach relents after COVID when the season is truly lost and allows him to play intermittently on the 2nd power play, still behind Vesey, Highpoint and alike.

Green has been crushing the confidence of an already fragile player and the Fans are trying to chase him out of town, which based on his play may seem fair but they may want to put the circumstances into context.

For all the rhetoric by Green about earning ice time blah blah blah it is untrue and the players know it's untrue. Greener just blew up Baertschi in a move that cost the Nucks 3.35M x 3 years and valuable cap space that continues to damage the franchise. They sold Gaudette at his lowest value because of Green's deployment and Green is very capable of destroying other players at the pulpit of his frontier justice.

It may be time for JV to move on but other franchises choose keeping players, especially when their value is low and the team is losing, and instead gauge if they flourish under a new coach rather than changing personnel. However, the Canucks, as in most management decisions, regularly choose the path less travelled.

 

[F A N]

I think it's clear that Treliving wasn't going to trade Bennett for the best offer available. The thing with Bennett is that he turns into a beast come playoff time like clockwork only to fall back into 11-13 goal 26-27 point player he has been. He's playing great now but it remains to be seen whether his production can be sustained. Interestingly, Sam Bennett actually plays the way that Benning seems to like his forwards to play.

 

[Breakers]

Virtanen was definitely in a sling right after the draft for a surgery I think.

 

[4Twenty]

Nope. This is a month before the draft.

Virtanen out 4-6 months after shoulder surgery

He fought that Russian Dman from Kootenay Rinat Valiev. That’s where he injured it. I recall it well. It was pre draft.

He still played at the U-18 with it too.

 

[4Twenty]

Jake’s 18 goals are some of the ugliest flukiest goals ever.

It was obviously a fluke.

Also Jake started this season in Miller’s spot. He failed miserably and rightfully got demoted.

After a certain point having to coddle and constantly coach a guy would get so tiring. Having to continually repeat simple effort and positional cues would be infuriating.

The juice isn’t worth the squeeze.

 

[iceburg]

The decision to draft Virtanen was always high risk with the hope of high reward. The Canucks grabbed him right where a lot of consensus draft rankings had him ranked, so he wasn’t the reach that say, Juolevi was. Virtanen was that potential grand slam power forward who could skate, shoot, and bulldoze his way through players.

Unfortunately, he hasn’t panned out - and for a top 10 pick, that’s a really big swing and a miss.

I actually don't remember him even being the consensus top power forward - I may be completely wrong. If I'm recalling correctly, it fell into two categories after the consensus top 5: 1. the highly skilled offensive forwards (Ehlers/Nylander), and 2. power forwards Virtanen/Ritchie/Perlini. But I agree it was always viewed as high risk high reward. Dal Colle was the much safer pick

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

Over the years the scribes of the fifth estate have eluded to several weird explanations that they intimate, in due time, would eventually come to light to explain strange Nuck's decisions. The drafting of JV was one example, Botch said that there was a personal/business relationship that FAQ had, that caused them to make the decision to draft JV.

We never found out if this was real or imaginary.

For a current scribe who make similar elusions, without specifics, listen to Patrick Johnston, he knows but he ain't sayin...


...yet.

 

[MS]

Over the years the scribes of the fifth estate have eluded to several weird explanations that they intimate, in due time, would eventually come to light to explain strange Nuck's decisions. The drafting of JV was one example, Botch said that there was a personal/business relationship that FAQ had, that caused them to make the decision to draft JV.

We never found out if this was real or imaginary.

For a current scribe who make similar elusions, without specifics, listen to Patrick Johnston, he knows but he ain't sayin...


...yet.

I sort of recall this but it's worth noting that Virtanen's dad is a retired air traffic controller so I'd say it's probably doubtful there was any direct personal/business relationship with Virtanen or his family.

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

Baffling, but Botch stated he had some specific insight.

 

[sting101]

I think most would agree that Virtanen is fragile and his play ebbs and wanes with his confidence.
Last year seemed like a turning point, he scored 18 goals in a shortened season and was doing it playing with some pretty shabby linemates most of the time. He was finally elevated to the second power play unit and looked like he was coming around. He moved to Kelowna in the off season to train with Meyers and Weber and the rest and was supposedly poised to take the next step. He comes to training camp and, finally, for the first time passes the fitness tests. Then the season starts and for the first 20 games the Canucks languish and Virtanen barely gets on the ice, he never plays on the second power play and the season is basically over by the time they turn it around at Game 22 when Greener finally changes their system of play. Yet Virtanen is still getting splinters on the bench. When he does play he looks lost. People start to pile on, the Coach relents after COVID when the season is truly lost and allows him to play intermittently on the 2nd power play, still behind Vesey, Highpoint and alike.

Green has been crushing the confidence of an already fragile player and the Fans are trying to chase him out of town, which based on his play may seem fair but they may want to put the circumstances into context.

For all the rhetoric by Green about earning ice time blah blah blah it is untrue and the players know its untrue. Greener just blew up Baertschi in a move that cost the Nucks 3.35M x 3 years and valuable cap space that continues to damage the franchise. They sold Gaudette at his lowest value because of Green's deployment and Green is very capable of destroying other players at the pulpit of his frontier justice.

It may be time for JV to move on but other franchises choose keeping players, especially when their value is low and the team is losing, and instead gauge if they flourish under a new coach rather than changing personnel. However, the Canucks, as in most management decisions, regularly choose the path less travelled.

Good post.

Green it seems after last years playoffs has had zero patience and willingness to give Jake opportunity.

Has been pretty sad and frustrating to watch his deployment despite this team needing speed and strength in a bad way in the top3 lines. No doubt he's played poorly far too often but when he was getting scratched and used on a 4th line Travis murdered the confidence of a player who was netting some pretty good results last year.

The list is long of players in our top9 who have played like crap far too often yet Jake has no rope whatsoever and that's due to a bias not based on data and talent. Seeing other players break out after a change of scenery should tell you exactly what's gonna happen if the team decides to keep Travis and he doesn't want to relent and they move Jake.

It's really unfortunate on so many levels. 6th OA who's as valuable as Jack Skille instead of Alex Tuch right now

 

[sting101]

Baffling, but Botch stated he had some specific insight.

I don't think it was any conspiracy or anything but his camp certainly had relationships with the Canucks staff at the time and the Aquilinis were excited to build a Big Bad Bruin type team with it's new Bruin manager and the push that had already started after they lost to Boston and then watched LA dominate.

 

[Fatass]

Good post.

Green it seems after last years playoffs has had zero patience and willingness to give Jake opportunity.

Has been pretty sad and frustrating to watch his deployment despite this team needing speed and strength in a bad way in the top3 lines. No doubt he's played poorly far too often but when he was getting scratched and used on a 4th line Travis murdered the confidence of a player who was netting some pretty good results last year.

The list is long of players in our top9 who have played like crap far too often yet Jake has no rope whatsoever and that's due to a bias not based on data and talent. Seeing other players break out after a change of scenery should tell you exactly what's gonna happen if the team decides to keep Travis and he doesn't want to relent and they move Jake.

It's really unfortunate on so many levels. 6th OA who's as valuable as Jack Skille instead of Alex Tuch right now

I’m not a fan of
Green’s systems or philosophy but Jake always comes back from extended time off overweight and not fit.

 

[sting101]

I’m not a fan of
Green’s systems or philosophy but Jake always comes back from extended time off overweight and not fit.

yes he has and it's a two way street which is what adds to the frustration of this whole situation. As i said Green has just had enough and decided to treat him like a scrub and let Jake work his way up from nothing.

Can't say i blame him that much if he's campaigned for him to be moved but if not then he has to throw Jake some cookies and be reasonable as he's not the only guy who has stretches of poor play in the top3 lines.

To your point if Jake reported at 210/215 instead of 225/230 then he probably would get a lot more acceptance. The guy has just never been looking to outwork and show the kind of fighter mentality that would have changed his career. He likes being comfortable, no pressure, no interviews, just be a celeb and ride the god given good life talents.

He's immature and selfish when it comes to what he could be for the team and his legacy. He's 24 almost 25 and still doesn't know how to come ready to play most nights or want to put in the preparation time. It's a shame

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

Except, he supposedly came to camp in shape for the first time and got benched anyways for good measure.

Green has a degree in "air" psychology.

 

[Fatass]

yes he has and it's a two way street which is what adds to the frustration of this whole situation. As i said Green has just had enough and decided to treat him like a scrub and let Jake work his way up from nothing.

Can't say i blame him that much if he's campaigned for him to be moved but if not then he has to throw Jake some cookies and be reasonable as he's not the only guy who has stretches of poor play in the top3 lines.

To your point if Jake reported at 210/215 instead of 225/230 then he probably would get a lot more acceptance. The guy has just never been looking to outwork and show the kind of fighter mentality that would have changed his career. He likes being comfortable, no pressure, no interviews, just be a celeb and ride the god given good life talents.

He's immature and selfish when it comes to what he could be for the team and his legacy. He's 24 almost 25 and still doesn't know how to come ready to play most nights or want to put in the preparation time. It's a shame

Totally agree, and I like Jake. Seems like a good guy.

 

[BenningHurtsMySoul]

Man, great username.

It was changed in protest lol, thanks

 

[MS]

I think most would agree that Virtanen is fragile and his play ebbs and wanes with his confidence.
Last year seemed like a turning point, he scored 18 goals in a shortened season and was doing it playing with some pretty shabby linemates most of the time. He was finally elevated to the second power play unit and looked like he was coming around. He moved to Kelowna in the off season to train with Meyers and Weber and the rest and was supposedly poised to take the next step. He comes to training camp and, finally, for the first time passes the fitness tests. Then the season starts and for the first 20 games the Canucks languish and Virtanen barely gets on the ice, he never plays on the second power play and the season is basically over by the time they turn it around at Game 22 when Greener finally changes their system of play. Yet Virtanen is still getting splinters on the bench. When he does play he looks lost. People start to pile on, the Coach relents after COVID when the season is truly lost and allows him to play intermittently on the 2nd power play, still behind Vesey, Highpoint and alike.

Green has been crushing the confidence of an already fragile player and the Fans are trying to chase him out of town, which based on his play may seem fair but they may want to put the circumstances into context.

For all the rhetoric by Green about earning ice time blah blah blah it is untrue and the players know it's untrue. Greener just blew up Baertschi in a move that cost the Nucks 3.35M x 3 years and valuable cap space that continues to damage the franchise. They sold Gaudette at his lowest value because of Green's deployment and Green is very capable of destroying other players at the pulpit of his frontier justice.

It may be time for JV to move on but other franchises choose keeping players, especially when their value is low and the team is losing, and instead gauge if they flourish under a new coach rather than changing personnel. However, the Canucks, as in most management decisions, regularly choose the path less travelled.

Have said this lots of times. Different players need to be motivated differently. Some players react well to the carrot and some to the stick.

Virtanen is a guy who is like a lost puppy dog and needs people to believe in him and show confidence in him to perform. But instead Green keeps hitting him with the stick over and over again hoping it will work.

When we were showcasing him for a potential Anaheim trade back at the start of March and ramped his minutes up from 8-10 to 15/game, he instantly looked night-and-day better.

 

[VanJack]

Keep in mind that instead of trading Virtanan this off-season, Benning decided to re-sign him and let Tofoli walk instead.

Now if that doesn't cause a flare-up of the old acid reflux in the stomach, nothing will.

 

[Izzy Goodenough]

Keep in mind that instead of trading Virtanan this off-season, Benning decided to re-sign him and let Tofoli walk instead.

Now if that doesn't cause a flare-up of the old acid reflux in the stomach, nothing will.

I know it played out like this but the decision was not really binary. They could have signed Toffoli and Virtanen and DeMeringue as a part-time backup and full-time pastry chef.

With Ferland going on the LTIR they could have signed Harmonica and had money left over for a big brass band.

But as you know, instead they signed Holtby for some reason, precluding most of the above.

 

[VanJack]

The entry draft is living proof that until scouts find a way of getting inside the heads of players, there's going to be a lot of 'swings and misses'
in the first round.

On paper, Virtanen could skate like the wind; hit and score in the Dub as an 18-year old. But it's what happens after a guy gets drafted the determines how far he'll go.

A solid work ethic both in-season and in the off-season; some basic hockey sense; and an indefatigable desire to improve were basically AWOL with this player from the very beginning.

But imagine if you could combine Hoglander's drive and hockey sense with Virtanen's body and skating ability. Man that would be something to see.