Jake Virtanen, Adam Gaudette, and the inarguable problem of the bottom 6.

[F A N]

Gaudette is coming off his ELC with no arbitration rights. He should be relatively cheap to re-sign. He's the type of player you keep on the team because you should be able to re-sign him to a contract where it's easy for Gaudette to offer value. He's turning 24, can play C, and has some skill to produce offensively.

Virtanen's price tag is going up and I'm not sure if he's going to be worth it. I honestly don't see much offensive upside. He's really not that skilled. He would skate the puck in then it's like he panics when he an opposing player cuts him off. Instead of trying to create some offense he fears losing the puck and then loses the puck. He's not a good finish either. He's like "Casual Jake" who I don't doubt will score 20 goals in a season one time one or two times in his career. I'm sorry if I turned on him. I can live with him playing himself into shape if his in-game effort was there. I just don't see it. There are ways he can contribute and I don't think he did. With that said, maybe he just needs a Mike Keenan type coach for him to get the most out of him. If he's going to re-sign for cheap then that changes the equation a bit.

 

[VanJack]

If Virtanen's contract were to go to arbitration and he wins, the most he could expect is $3m a season. That puts him in exactly the same ballpark as Baertschi, Roussel, Ferland and Beagle....and a million and half less than Sutter is making and three million less than Eriksson is making.

And people are worried that his 'price tag is going up and I'm not sure he's going to be worth it'. Seriously?

 

[nergish]

I have been a big Jake supporter for years, but it's finally time to cut ties.
His "give-a-s$%&" meter is clearly broken and it's not getting fixed in Vancouver.

We're ready to start inserting hungry guys like Lind, Hoglander, Podkolzin, etc.
Guys that realize playing hockey as a career is insanely rare, and being a good player in a market like this can open up a whole new world for you.
Look at how our fanbase adopted "shotgun Jake" for his tremendous 18 goals...
Imagine the type of treatment Hoglander will get once he starts pulling off Michigan goals in the NHL, or Podkolzin once we see the way he battles for every single puck in front of him.

Jake is not a bad player, but he's not the player we wanted when we drafted him. We're in a different place now.
We need guys that go the extra mile when the season's on the line.

As for Gaudette, you can tell he cares, and he does have some nice offensive skills. His footspeed was a huge issue in the playoffs though. I did not feel particularly comfortable when he was on the ice most shifts.

 

[iloovRMB]

It’s not the time to trade Virtanen. If you do it you wait until he’s about to become a UFA and looking for a real payday. His value will keep going up for the next 2 years. Maybe slightly, maybe massively. We should wait and see.

 

[lawrence]

We're ready to start inserting hungry guys like Lind, Hoglander,

sorry for the half glass full comment, but he did his role fine, as a bottom 6 player in his first playoffs. I don't have a problem with him, you said it's time to start to inserting those guys while true, those guys might not actually be ready to play at the NHL level, Jake is 6'1 225 Hoglander is 5'9 180, and Line is 6'1 180, none of them skate as fast or even able to hit as hard, or even have the equal amount of toughness as jake, and to be quite honest, things could have been much worst like having someone like Michael dal cole or a sam bennet who none of them are as effective as jake as a bottom sixer, and lets not forget, Jake lead our fowards in hits. He was doing everything he can.

 

[lawrence]

at 18 goals, that would put jake at 5th in goals on the Vegas Knights roster more then anyone on their entire bottom 6 of the knights, and even more then members of their 2nd line. Maybe they knights players stop asking him why he's still in the line up? He's really not as bad as we think, a lot of teams actually wouldn't mind him in their bottom 6.

 

[shottasasa]

I don’t think it’s wise to bail on JV or Gaudette based on the or first playoff experience. I expect them to be better next season for a few reasons. They need to improve their 2way play but getting exposure to the level of play in the playoffs should help them. A lot of players need to be put in the next level in order to improve. Much like a player like McEwan moving from the AHL to the NHL. He was plateauing in Utica, or at least his improvement was slowing down, but I think being in the NHL has forced him to improve his pace of play. I’m hoping that all of the young players but most especially the guys at the bottom of the roster like Gaudette, Virtanen, Stecher and McEwan make improvements in these areas next season.

Much has been reported about how Green made defensive adjustments in the break, and I certainly saw the difference. I, along with quite a few on this board, have been sceptical about Green due to the train wreck the Canucks were in their own end during the regular season, but they were much better in the bubble. If their team structure is better next season I think players like Gaudette and Virtanen will benefit and look better.

 

[Love]

Farhan Lalji just said he thinks if the Canucks can get a late 2nd or early 3rd for Virtanen they should do it. Yes this is the insanity that much of our media and fan base actually believes.

Trade him for a 3rd!! That 3rd rounder might be half as good as Virtanen in 5 years!!

 

[MS]

Farhan Lalji just said he thinks if the Canucks can get a late 2nd or early 3rd for Virtanen they should do it. Yes this is the insanity that much of our media and fan base actually believes.

Trade him for a 3rd!! That 3rd rounder might be half as good as Virtanen in 5 years!!

The team loses in the playoffs with $30 million in absolute garbage old players being the worst players on the roster and getting completely caved in by Vegas.

Fans/Media : It's the cheap productive young players who are the problem! Dump Virtanen for nothing!

 

[Love]

The team loses in the playoffs with $30 million in absolute garbage old players being the worst players on the roster and getting completely caved in by Vegas.

Fans/Media : It's the cheap productive young players who are the problem! Dump Virtanen for nothing!

EXACTLY

Like jeez I can’t even listen to our media anymore. It’s mind numbingly stupid.

 

[MS]

EXACTLY

Like jeez I can’t even listen to our media anymore. It’s mind numbingly stupid.

In terms of actual play relative to contract, Virtanen was one of our better forwards in these playoffs. And if his name was Jake Smith who was a 2014 5th rounder who battled his way up from Utica, nobody would be wanting to move him. But he's constantly being judged against his draft position and for the the reports on his conditioning.

It's hugely frustrating and yeah, the media is just braindead. And refuses to criticize anyone but the most obvious targets.

Take out EN points and Tanner Pearson and Jake Virtanen were equally productive last season. And (again taking out ES points) Pearson went 11-0-0-0 -7 to close out the playoffs. Not a peep of criticism of Pearson at triple the cap hit. Brock Boeser had the same number of ES goals as Virtanen playing next to Pettersson as Virtanen while Virtanen was getting 10 minutes/game with grinders. But dump the young cheap player for nothing!

 

[F A N]

If Virtanen's contract were to go to arbitration and he wins, the most he could expect is $3m a season. That puts him in exactly the same ballpark as Baertschi, Roussel, Ferland and Beagle....and a million and half less than Sutter is making and three million less than Eriksson is making.

And people are worried that his 'price tag is going up and I'm not sure he's going to be worth it'. Seriously?

The guys you mentioned were paid for their UFA years. More importantly, do you think we have gotten good value out of those signings? I would argue that Roussel when healthy has been fair value but that's another story.

The way RFA years are suppose to work is that you pay them less than they are worth on the open market.

 

[Fatass]

I’m liking Jake and Gaud as two parts of our third line next season. Maybe a guy like Lind plays with them, or Hoglander? But we still need to dump a couple old guys and their toxic contracts to make room.

 

[Bankerguy]

TBH, the fact that Virtanen can play LW helps his case. He also put up 18 goals which isn't nothing....
Let Pearson walk after next year.... then put Virtanen on Horvats wing (2LW) and just leave him there.
If Hoglander comes in and tears things up then you have a player to replace Virtanen. The right side is set with Boeser, Podkolzin and possibly Toffoli.

 

[flyerslducks]

when do you guys think hoglander will make it to your team?

 

[wonton15]

when do you guys think hoglander will make it to your team?

Two years at the earliest. He might impress at camp this year but I don't see him on the team until 2021-2022. He'll probably jump in with Podkolzin on ELCs right after Pettersson and Hughes enter their large contracts

 

[Juniorhockeyguru]

Jake doesn't take his career seriously. That is clear as day. If you can move him to get rid of Eriksson, you do it.

Who cares what he does with somebody else? He's not doing it here.

 

[HedonisticAltruism]

In terms of actual play relative to contract, Virtanen was one of our better forwards in these playoffs. And if his name was Jake Smith who was a 2014 5th rounder who battled his way up from Utica, nobody would be wanting to move him. But he's constantly being judged against his draft position and for the the reports on his conditioning.

It's hugely frustrating and yeah, the media is just braindead. And refuses to criticize anyone but the most obvious targets.

Take out EN points and Tanner Pearson and Jake Virtanen were equally productive last season. And (again taking out ES points) Pearson went 11-0-0-0 -7 to close out the playoffs. Not a peep of criticism of Pearson at triple the cap hit. Brock Boeser had the same number of ES goals as Virtanen playing next to Pettersson as Virtanen while Virtanen was getting 10 minutes/game with grinders. But dump the young cheap player for nothing!

There's definitely a huge sunk cost fallacy that many people have.

Pearson was awful - I casually mentioned it on our final GDT but yeah, most critiques went elsewhere.

 

[MS]

There's definitely a huge sunk cost fallacy that many people have.

Absolutely. Can't separate the pick from the player. And Benning doing the exactly the same thing, comparing him to Alex Tuch who was from the same 1st round as a reason he was disappointing.

That ship has sailed. At this point all that matters is :

1) Is Jake Virtanen, as he is, a useful player?
2) Does he provide value over and above his cap hit?

In both cases, the answer is obviously yes.

Pearson was awful - I casually mentioned it on our final GDT but yeah, most critiques went elsewhere.

The Pearson case is fascinating.

The guy was a negative-value cap dump when we got him, and miraculously - in good part due to an obscene amount of EN points - had a 'career year' and re-established himself as a player with positive value.

And then tanked down the stretch (5 points, -11 in his last 18 games when you take out EN points) and further tanked in the playoffs (finished the playoffs on an 11 game, -7 pointless streak). And is out of contract next summer, and highly unlikely to be re-signed at that time.

And there literally isn't a peep about him. This is literally the most obvious player in the world to be moving away from and they've caught a huge break in that they'll likely get assets back in a trade and not have to add. And he clears more cap space than Virtanen and Stecher combined.

But instead they're going to clear less money by clearing out better players who hold more long-term utility for the club.

 

[mossey3535]

IMO our bottom-6 would be:

Virtanen-Gaudette-Leivo
Macewan-XXX-Motte

These are all younger players who are cheap. The issue is that XXX = Sutter, Beagle, Roussel, Ferland. That's a whole lot of underperformance and overpayment for one slot. If this bottom-6 was getting caved in, at least the money you are saving would go to d-men, and maybe with better puck distributors from the backend the bottom-6 doesn't get caved in.

We could still walk away from Virtanen in arbitration and try to get him as a bargain on the UFA market. There's going to be a huge squeeze - there was already a huge squeeze last season and that wasn't under two years of flat cap and pandemic.

 

[mossey3535]

Absolutely. Can't separate the pick from the player. And Benning doing the exactly the same thing, comparing him to Alex Tuch who was from the same 1st round as a reason he was disappointing.

That ship has sailed. At this point all that matters is :

1) Is Jake Virtanen, as he is, a useful player?
2) Does he provide value over and above his cap hit?

In both cases, the answer is obviously yes.



The Pearson case is fascinating.

The guy was a negative-value cap dump when we got him, and miraculously - in good part due to an obscene amount of EN points - had a 'career year' and re-established himself as a player with positive value.

And then tanked down the stretch (5 points, -11 in his last 18 games when you take out EN points) and further tanked in the playoffs (finished the playoffs on an 11 game, -7 pointless streak). And is out of contract next summer, and highly unlikely to be re-signed at that time.

And there literally isn't a peep about him. This is literally the most obvious player in the world to be moving away from and they've caught a huge break in that they'll likely get assets back in a trade and not have to add. And he clears more cap space than Virtanen and Stecher combined.

But instead they're going to clear less money by clearing out better players who hold more long-term utility for the club.

Yeah I don't think Pearson is all that good. Normally he'd have value as an expiring contract but again under this flat cap I'm not sure that will be a value move for many teams now.

 

[MS]

Yeah I don't think Pearson is all that good. Normally he'd have value as an expiring contract but again under this flat cap I'm not sure that will be a value move for many teams now.

I don't think the value would be huge but I'd be surprised if we couldn't get, say, a 3rd rounder back for him from a team like Buffalo that has cap space and a desire to improve, and had 2 wingers score more than 25 points last year.

It should be the most slam-dunk obvious move the team makes this summer.

 

[xtra]

I don't think the value would be huge but I'd be surprised if we couldn't get, say, a 3rd rounder back for him from a team like Buffalo that has cap space and a desire to improve, and had 2 wingers score more than 25 points last year.

It should be the most slam-dunk obvious move the team makes this summer.

Where do you find the empty net points? I can’t find it for Pearson.

 

[bossram]

Farhan Lalji just said he thinks if the Canucks can get a late 2nd or early 3rd for Virtanen they should do it. Yes this is the insanity that much of our media and fan base actually believes.

Trade him for a 3rd!! That 3rd rounder might be half as good as Virtanen in 5 years!!

The team loses in the playoffs with $30 million in absolute garbage old players being the worst players on the roster and getting completely caved in by Vegas.

Fans/Media : It's the cheap productive young players who are the problem! Dump Virtanen for nothing!

I wouldn't want to move Jake for a 3rd rounder either, but it's going to be incredibly difficult to fit him onto the team with a ~$3 million cap hit given the lack of cap flexibility the team has. We might be forced into moving him for some kind of value in return.

Maybe we can get a 1st, looking at the Kapanen deal? Maybe not. But with so many deadweight cap hits eating up cap space in the bottom-six, it'll be tough to make the math work on Virtanen.

 

[MS]

Where do you find the empty net points? I can’t find it for Pearson.

I just went through the box scores on hockey-reference. He had 10 EN points in the regular season and then 2 more in the playoffs.