Injury Report: Jake Muzzin - broken foot || UPD 01/23 : Conditioning stint with Marlies.

[Jeffrey Pedler]

With Muzzy out we have no veteran defensive presence on the backend. Holl is our next best but he is only a #5 (maybe a #4). We can all see with Muzzy out we have no real defensive defenseman. I expect we are in deep do do until he is back in our lineup unless we can win a 6-5 game which is very possible given our SOFT schedule.

The back end is full of veteran defensemen, they just aren't good defensively.

Rielly, Barrie, Ceci, Marincin are all veterans. Even Dermott can be considered a two year veteran.

 

[ULF_55]

imo Ceci is a solid bottom pair D who's grossly overpaid , he's a pending ufa so his salary isn't much of an issue but my point was why would a team give up a top 4 D for Johnson with him attached , hell why would a team give up a top 4 D for a small complimentary winger like Johnson alone ?

If said top 4 D is UFA and they like Johnsson.

Heck, I could see tank team retain on a 1 for 1 on a Johnsson for expiring Top 4 defender and throw in a prospect.

For some teams the year is already over except for playing the rest of the games, and having a ready asset for next year is better than letting a player walk for nothing. Leafs could end up throwing Bracco into a deal, and some think he's a valuable asset, but just isn't going to get that opportunity in Toronto. I doubt the Leafs are the only team in the league with prospect in the AHL who might be able to play in the NHL except they have better players in his position.

Regardless, I believe Leafs are going to do something.

 

[RoadWarrior]

The back end is full of veteran defensemen, they just aren't good defensively.

Rielly, Barrie, Ceci, Marincin are all veterans. Even Dermott can be considered a two year veteran.

Barrie, Ceci and Marincin are all below average defensively. Injured Rielly isn't much better.

For the love of god call up Sandin and Liljegren or make a trade.

Without Muzzin the back end is horribad.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

The back end is full of veteran defensemen, they just aren't good defensively.

Rielly, Barrie, Ceci, Marincin are all veterans. Even Dermott can be considered a two year veteran.

Rielly is 25. He is still a year or two away from what I consider a veteran. But he has the skill and the heart and I think he will learn the finer aspects of defense.
Ceci is 26. He is a little closer but lacks a lot of defensive understanding. I think he was an offensive guy when he was younger and now is trying to learn defense. I don't think he will pan out. If he brought a physical game than I would wait him out but he does not even bring that for a big man.
Barrie is a VET no doubt but he has ZERO defensive capabilities. His only value is on the rush and PP. We are getting more from him with Keefe but I can't see anyone winning with Barrie in your top 4. We must trade him to get a 1st rounder next year so the Kadri trade is not a total screw up. Some other team will pay for his offense and that's ok we don't need that capability with Rielly on our squad.
Marty is a VET no doubt but he has ZERO hands and ZERO physical capability. Of every signing made I am completely disenchanted with signing him for another year. Every time he touches the puck it is like a grenade going off. I can't see how anyone sees him as anything more than a AHLer. Really shocked me to learn he was resigned.

With this motley crew of defenders it is shocking to me that Lily does not get a chance. He is flat out better all day every day than Marty and that is enough to bring him up for me. My guess is he is better than Ceci too.

 

[hotpaws]

If said top 4 D is UFA and they like Johnsson.

Heck, I could see tank team retain on a 1 for 1 on a Johnsson for expiring Top 4 defender and throw in a prospect.

For some teams the year is already over except for playing the rest of the games, and having a ready asset for next year is better than letting a player walk for nothing. Leafs could end up throwing Bracco into a deal, and some think he's a valuable asset, but just isn't going to get that opportunity in Toronto. I doubt the Leafs are the only team in the league with prospect in the AHL who might be able to play in the NHL except they have better players in his position.

Regardless, I believe Leafs are going to do something.

i guess like you said it would come down to how much a team likes Johnson but solid expiring D usually go for a premium at the t/d and i could see other teams offering more , if i'm a seller i'd probably prefer to roll the dice and get a 1st plus a decent prospect or a solid prospect plus a 2nd/3rd or something like that which usually get offered at that time

i like Johnson but i don't see moderately skilled small complimentary wingers like him holding high value and while his cap hit isn't huge he isn't on what i'd call a team friendly deal

 

[Jeffrey Pedler]

Rielly is 25. He is still a year or two away from what I consider a veteran. But he has the skill and the heart and I think he will learn the finer aspects of defense.
Ceci is 26. He is a little closer but lacks a lot of defensive understanding. I think he was an offensive guy when he was younger and now is trying to learn defense. I don't think he will pan out. If he brought a physical game than I would wait him out but he does not even bring that for a big man.
Barrie is a VET no doubt but he has ZERO defensive capabilities. His only value is on the rush and PP. We are getting more from him with Keefe but I can't see anyone winning with Barrie in your top 4. We must trade him to get a 1st rounder next year so the Kadri trade is not a total screw up. Some other team will pay for his offense and that's ok we don't need that capability with Rielly on our squad.
Marty is a VET no doubt but he has ZERO hands and ZERO physical capability. Of every signing made I am completely disenchanted with signing him for another year. Every time he touches the puck it is like a grenade going off. I can't see how anyone sees him as anything more than a AHLer. Really shocked me to learn he was resigned.

With this motley crew of defenders it is shocking to me that Lily does not get a chance. He is flat out better all day every day than Marty and that is enough to bring him up for me. My guess is he is better than Ceci too.

Age doesn't determine if your a veteran, it has too do with number of seasons in the NHL. You can be a two year veteran, three year veteran and in Rielly's case a 6 year veteran.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

i guess like you said it would come down to how much a team likes Johnson but solid expiring D usually go for a premium at the t/d and i could see other teams offering more , if i'm a seller i'd probably prefer to roll the dice and get a 1st plus a decent prospect or a solid prospect plus a 2nd/3rd or something like that which usually get offered at that time

i like Johnson but i don't see moderately skilled small complimentary wingers like him holding high value and while his cap hit isn't huge he isn't on what i'd call a team friendly deal

AJ for a backup tender and a 2nd rounder next year is much more realistic. 20 goal potential even for a small complimentary winger will get something. We need the CAP space to add a defensive defender UFA for playoff run. In my mind he is best chip we have. Ceci is a CAP dump. I think we can all see it now. To get rid of Ceci will cost us an asset like a good pick next year or a good prospect.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Age doesn't determine if your a veteran, it has too do with number of seasons in the NHL. You can be a two year veteran, three year veteran and in Rielly's case a 6 year veteran.

It takes 6-8 years of playing pro hockey before you really learn all the tricks of the trade on defense. Yes offensive guys it is different but I am talking about defenders here.

 

[Jeffrey Pedler]

It takes 6-8 years of playing pro hockey before you really learn all the tricks of the trade on defense. Yes offensive guys it is different but I am talking about defenders here.

That doesn't change the fact that Rielly is still considered a veteran, especially after 516 games in the NHL. Muzzin has only played 48 more career games than Rielly. Plus he is considered a veteran by the NHLs definition.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

That doesn't change the fact that Rielly is still considered a veteran, especially after 516 games in the NHL. Muzzin has only played 48 more career games than Rielly. Plus he is considered a veteran by the NHLs definition.

Muzzin has played 10 pro seasons. Rielly has played 7 pro seasons. And Muzz understands what it takes to play in playoffs. There is a HUGE difference there. Rielly is close but he is getting better and stronger and I think he still has a huge upside on the defender side of things.

 

[BertCorbeau]

Really seeing the impact of missing Muzzin in the line up .. hope he gets better soon

 

[Jeffrey Pedler]

Muzzin has played 10 pro seasons. Rielly has played 7 pro seasons. And Muzz understands what it takes to play in playoffs. There is a HUGE difference there. Rielly is close but he is getting better and stronger and I think he still has a huge upside on the defender side of things.

What we are arguing about is whether or not Rielly is considered a veteran. By definition Rielly is a veteran. Yes Muzzin has played 10 seasons, but Muzzin is also five years older than Rielly, the fact that their is not much difference seperating them, in NHL regulars says a lot. Muzzin does have 57 playoff games, compared to Rielly's 20, but even that does not disqualify him as a veteran.

Just because Rielly is 25, doesn't mean he is not a veteran. It is determined by games in the NHL definition and by years of experience.

Alot of mistakes our veteran defensemen are making should have been cleared up by now. At this point in their careers they should know how to play a 2 on 1? What type of defensive system they have (sagging zone defense, box plus 1)?

 

[JT AM da real deal]

What we are arguing about is whether or not Rielly is considered a veteran. By definition Rielly is a veteran. Yes Muzzin has played 10 seasons, but Muzzin is also five years older than Rielly, the fact that their is not much difference seperating them, in NHL regulars says a lot. Muzzin does have 57 playoff games, compared to Rielly's 20, but even that does not disqualify him as a veteran.

Just because Rielly is 25, doesn't mean he is not a veteran. It is determined by games in the NHL definition and by years of experience.

Alot of mistakes our veteran defensemen are making should have been cleared up by now. At this point in their careers they should know how to play a 2 on 1? What type of defensive system they have (sagging zone defense, box plus 1)?

He is just turning into a decent defender now ... you can see it in his play he is starting to do the little things right defensively almost all of the time ... he is another year or two away from doing the right things all the time ... then I will consider him a veteran consistent defender

 

[Jeffrey Pedler]

He is just turning into a decent defender now ... you can see it in his play he is starting to do the little things right defensively almost all of the time ... he is another year or two away from doing the right things all the time ... then I will consider him a veteran consistent defender

So you are coming up with your own definition of what a veteran NHLer is?

 

[JT AM da real deal]

So you are coming up with your own definition of what a veteran NHLer is?

No it was commonly accepted industry practice for a 100 years that a pro defenseman took 7-9 years to bake into an all round defender considered a solid vet. and then you got 5-7 years of decent production from a guy then. Guys spent their first 3-4 years in minors and next 3-5 years learning in NHL. NHL teams built teams so they had 3 vets, 2 NHL learners and 1 rook who was largely offensive in nature going back and forth. Our Leafs have got the whole thing really screwed up. We put Rielly in a really bad spot for many years. Now we are about to screw over Lily and Sandin. We are eating our own.

 

[Fogelhund]

So.... apologies in advance, but when is he expected back?

 

[Jeffrey Pedler]

No it was commonly accepted industry practice for a 100 years that a pro defenseman took 7-9 years to bake into an all round defender considered a solid vet. and then you got 5-7 years of decent production from a guy then. Guys spent their first 3-4 years in minors and next 3-5 years learning in NHL. NHL teams built teams so they had 3 vets, 2 NHL learners and 1 rook who was largely offensive in nature going back and forth. Our Leafs have got the whole thing really screwed up. We put Rielly in a really bad spot for many years. Now we are about to screw over Lily and Sandin. We are eating our own.

No the the NHL considers a veteran player as a person who has played in 30 games the previous season. Rielly is a seven year vet, just like Muzzin is a ten vet. Whether they are fully developed or not, doesn't have any bearing on the definition of what a veteran is.

Matthews, Marner and Nylander are all four year NHL veterans.

 

[ShaneFalco]

So.... apologies in advance, but when is he expected back?

Last I heard, after the all-star break

 

[Fogelhund]

Last I heard, after the all-star break

The good news is, we only have three games before the All-Star break. Flames, Devils, Blackhawks... some recovery time... we need it.

 

[Stephen]

Age doesn't determine if your a veteran, it has too do with number of seasons in the NHL. You can be a two year veteran, three year veteran and in Rielly's case a 6 year veteran.

A "two year veteran" isn't really a thing...

 

[ULF_55]

The good news is, we only have three games before the All-Star break. Flames, Devils, Blackhawks... some recovery time... we need it.

1st. game after the break Muzzin would be permitted to return to the line-up if healthy, January 27th.

IIRC 24 days and 10 games for LTIR.

 

[SprDaVE]

 

[Ziggdiezan]

I think they may rush Muzzin back as they realize there is a pretty decent chance the leafs miss the playoffs without Muzzin+Rielly and Dubas job may be put in jeopardy if a high pick is given up (low teens) for the Marleau trade

 

[Jeffrey Pedler]

A "two year veteran" isn't really a thing...

It actually is, because once your no longer a a rookie than that veteran clock starts ticking. If the NHL wants to come up with a new term for a second year player then they can, but till then they are still considered veterans under NHL rule 15.4.

What JT AM and I were arguing about is whether Rielly is considered a vet. He said no because Rielly is 25 and has not yet developed a defensive game. I said yes, because age and whether they have developed a defensive game or not doesn't determine if they are a veteran. Years of experience determines if they are a veteran. Some veterans have more experience than other veterans. Hence Muzzin only having 48 more regular season games than Rielly. Yes Muzzin spent a couple seasons in the AHL and his first couple of NHL seasons he was back and forth.

If we were to go by JT AM's definition then every former first round pick, now in their thirties, playing on the fourth line wouldn't be considered a veteran because they never developed that offensive game. Rielly may never develop that defensive game to point which is acceptable for a top pairing defenseman, but he is still a veteran. When healthy he is one of the top offensive defensemen in the league.

 

[Judas Tavares]

I think they may rush Muzzin back as they realize there is a pretty decent chance the leafs miss the playoffs without Muzzin+Rielly and Dubas job may be put in jeopardy if a high pick is given up (low teens) for the Marleau trade

Muzzin coming back 3 games early or not will not make or break Dubas' job.
1. Because Muzzin can't make that difference alone
2. Because a failed season will not get Dubas fired this year. 2020-2021 failed season, maybe. But not this year.