News Article: Jake Gardiner and the Toronto Maple Leafs blueline

[jboknows]

Is it just me or are comments like moving around and disappearing and then reappearing and stuff?

Don't think I've noticed a problem...

 

[Daisy Jane]

i can't even remember the post now - but ... kay - I'm so nice, I'll do it again for you:

I'm not going to go through the time stamps - but this is what you are going to look for.



near the end - someone asked regarding the kids or bright spots or something. Randy looks up and he has a bright smile on his face and says something akin to We have Rielly, and Jake, and a 23 year old who scored 50 points, you tell me what other 23 year olds who can do that. He says their NAMES. maybe it's my english literature degree kicking in here, but you don't have a big smile and name someone and less than a minute later go

"well there's a certain player who braw braw braw...."


the media is trying to make this into a drahmah so if a trade regarding Gardiner happens they have their storyline. I don't think we should be moving Kadri/Gardiner - we should be giving them JVR deals and eat up some UFA years) and then see when to move them. but this will start another circular argument.


(editing to add - maybe he was talking about Rielly - but again, I don't think he'd smile and praise him and less than a minute late backhand compliment him).

 

[Cor]

If I'm running a team or really any business, it seems slightly moronic to base a decision to keep the current coach/status quo for another year based on a dream/desire to get Babcock in the future. I think the Leafs could have targeted a couple coaches this year that would be far more suitable for the current roster. I would also be concerned that we are going to make drastic changes to the roster to work with Carlyle this year, which could go against what Babcock would want even if he were to come here.

It just seems like a really bad business decision... an equivalent would be making roster changes to plan on Stastny coming here as your #1 centre this year because of connections like "his wife loves the city", "he wants to play in Canadian market", etc. --- note that I'm making those statements up so people on here shouldn't get their hopes up!

Anyway, just my thought. I guess I'm a little hesitant to believe that any player/coach/GM is going to come here, because time and time again we hear this kind of thing and then it doesn't happen

Again, leafs management say they didn't see an upgrade available. So, they brought back Carlyle for his final year (added on an extra year as a severance package ).

Management are hoping that either MacLellan or Babcock are available next season, there is solid chance one of them will become available. (San Jose will probably need a finals appearance to stay, much like Bylsma needed)

We will see. Carlyle has been in Toronto for two seasons, and he made the playoffs in one of them, so, you can say he deserves a second chance. (and I wanted him fired probably more than anybody )

It just means more focus will be on changing the players, which we need more than a coaching change at this point

 

[The Winter Soldier]

i can't even remember the post now - but ... kay - I'm so nice, I'll do it again for you:

I'm not going to go through the time stamps - but this is what you are going to look for.



near the end - someone asked regarding the kids or bright spots or something. Randy looks up and he has a bright smile on his face and says something akin to We have Rielly, and Jake, and a 23 year old who scored 50 points, you tell me what other 23 year olds who can do that. He says their NAMES. maybe it's my english literature degree kicking in here, but you don't have a big smile and name someone and less than a minute later go

"well there's a certain player who braw braw braw...."


the media is trying to make this into a drahmah so if a trade regarding Gardiner happens they have their storyline. I don't think we should be moving Kadri/Gardiner - we should be giving them JVR deals and eat up some UFA years) and then see when to move them. but this will start another circular argument.


(editing to add - maybe he was talking about Rielly - but again, I don't think he'd smile and praise him and less than a minute late backhand compliment him).

If I were a betting man, here are the odds of who Carlyle was referring to as the young rover.

Gardiner 1/5
Rielly 8/1
Franson 10/1
Dion 30/1
Gunnarson 40/1
Gleason 50/1
Ranger 50/1

 

[Cor]

If I were a betting man, here are the odds of who Carlyle was referring to as the young rover.

Gardiner 1/5
Rielly 8/1
Franson 10/1
Dion 30/1
Gunnarson 40/1
Gleason 50/1
Ranger 50/1

You think Gardiner had a short leash at the end of the season?

 

[King85Kong]

We won't know who truly he meant, and don't think it really matters. Obviously Carlyle likes Gardiner with his ice time increasing as the season went on. Ended up playing one of the top ES minutes on our blueline. Either Carlyle likes him, or Carlyle went full crazy.

Also noted in the video is how he sticks up for Kadri, saying you look around the league, and you tell me how many other 23 year old players you see putting up 50 points.

 

[Durrr]

If I were a betting man, here are the odds of who Carlyle was referring to as the young rover.

Gardiner 1/5
Rielly 8/1
Franson 10/1
Dion 30/1
Gunnarson 40/1
Gleason 50/1
Ranger 50/1

This is hilarious lmao

 

[Daisy Jane]

exactly. and - I am going to give Randy some credit here which I think he doesn't get due to the fact people hate him:

Randy may not play the kids a lot (or like - at all in some of the Marlies cases) - but I personally feel he does a good job developing the ones he has to play with (Jake, Morgan, Nazzy). and while people keep screaming "take the leash off and let them play!!" I personally feel that he's trying to teach them how to play well in all three zones. I don't think he's forcing Naz to be something he's not (or Jake or Mo) - but he's forcing them (albeit this season - it went horrendously poorly), how to be better defensive minded - so then their God-given natural talent shines SO much more).

And. regardless of how some people feel or like to bring up Schenn/JVR etc etc - While I am not adverse to trading anyone I am loathe to trade/give up defensemen for the simple fact that they do take longer to develop. I'm not looking at just points with Jake here, I am looking at when the games start to matter, Jake starts to play better. He takes a while to get going and then he hits his stride - I honestly feel that a 27 year old Jake is not going to be worse, but could be that much better.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Not that I really want to add to the controversy surrounding RC's comments...

but why hasn't anyone suggested that his comments were about Rielly?

"Just a defenceman. One example. A defenceman that's a young defenceman that's playing a you know a rover type of hockey earlier in the season versus a more condensed style of hockey, a more conservative style at the end of the season. And coming back and feeling that the leash that he was afforded in the beginning of the season wasn't as long as the one he was afforded in the end of the season. And the coach says well if he would have played longer he would have had a longer leash. So it's like the chicken before the egg. Specifically that one player had a feeling that his leash was short where we believed it was longer than that, it was just kind of a surprise. And then the comparison of who he compared himself with, it was just kind of shocking."

Gardiner was undoubtedly afforded a longer leash at the end of the season, so that last bolded sentence appears to rule him out.

Both Franson and Rielly could arguably fit into that description.

I'm not saying it's Rielly. I just don't see how certain posters are so certain that it's Gardiner, yet Rielly is completely ruled out.

People are sure it's Gardiner because it fits their agenda. That's what most posters here do, they decide on an agenda and then try to argue for it no matter what.

Here's what we know:

* Player was young.
Seeing someone as young is subjective. For someone Randy's age, any current player is young. The Riellys and Kadris are basically kids. I'm myself 30, and I am constantly referred to as young by pretty much anyone I meet who is approaching 50 or more.

* Player is a rover.
This generally fits Rielly and Gardiner better than Franson, but it refers to the player being a rover in the beginning of the season. Rielly was really careful for the first half, and I had several discussions with people being disappointed because Gardiner was not taking as much initiative as he did in the playoffs. Franson was getting a lot of crap for pinches and puck carrying, and getting burned for it. There is an argument against Franson here, but this is clearly the part that most of all point towards Gardiner.

* Player had a long leash at the start of the season, short towards the end.
Gardiner had a leash the whole season. Towards the end he was let loose and getting a ton of minutes and was carrying the puck and taking initiative much more often than previously. He was the guy Carlyle seemed to rely on as Dion and Gunner faltered. Meanwhile, Franson was getting fewer and fewer minutes and got taken off the 1PP. His replacement? Gardiner. This almost completely takes off Gardiner as a candidate, and fits Franson perfectly. It doesn't really fit Rielly well either.

* Player has an incredibly high opinion of himself.
I have no idea if this fits Gardiner. Doubt any of us do. There are plenty that points towards Franson having an inflated opinion of himself though.

That's what I go on. An analyze of the quote based on what anyone knows, and how well it fits the players. I see a much better case against Franson than against Gardiner, and base my opinion on that.

So what about the media? Well it's media. Not sure why some suddenly seem to think that it's the truth and nothing but the truth if media says so. I've had both swedish and international media basically tell me they have no problem with writing something that is not true as long as its possible to argue for their version as well. That's how elements of media can be. As people have said, Franson is a non-story. Gardiner is not.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

People are sure it's Gardiner because it fits their agenda. That's what most posters here do, they decide on an agenda and then try to argue for it no matter what.

Here's what we know:

* Player was young.
Seeing someone as young is subjective. For someone Randy's age, any current player is young. The Riellys and Kadris are basically kids. I'm myself 30, and I am constantly referred to as young by pretty much anyone I meet who is approaching 50 or more.

* Player is a rover.
This generally fits Rielly and Gardiner better than Franson, but it refers to the player being a rover in the beginning of the season. Rielly was really careful for the first half, and I had several discussions with people being disappointed because Gardiner was not taking as much initiative as he did in the playoffs. Franson was getting a lot of crap for pinches and puck carrying, and getting burned for it. There is an argument against Franson here, but this is clearly the part that most of all point towards Gardiner.

* Player had a long leash at the start of the season, short towards the end.
Gardiner had a leash the whole season. Towards the end he was let loose and getting a ton of minutes and was carrying the puck and taking initiative much more often than previously. He was the guy Carlyle seemed to rely on as Dion and Gunner faltered. Meanwhile, Franson was getting fewer and fewer minutes and got taken off the 1PP. His replacement? Gardiner. This almost completely takes off Gardiner as a candidate, and fits Franson perfectly. It doesn't really fit Rielly well either.

* Player has an incredibly high opinion of himself.
I have no idea if this fits Gardiner. Doubt any of us do. There are plenty that points towards Franson having an inflated opinion of himself though.

That's what I go on. An analyze of the quote based on what anyone knows, and how well it fits the players. I see a much better case against Franson than against Gardiner, and base my opinion on that.

So what about the media? Well it's media. Not sure why some suddenly seem to think that it's the truth and nothing but the truth if media says so. I've had both swedish and international media basically tell me they have no problem with writing something that is not true as long as its possible to argue for their version as well. That's how elements of media can be. As people have said, Franson is a non-story. Gardiner is not.

Really, a young rover description only fits 2 players on the roster. Franson does not play like a rover, nor is he that young.

A rover by definition is a player that is neither a defenceman or a forward.

A rover plays all over the ice, without contraints of either position. Basically it is a player that roams all over the ice where he sees fit to go.

I can think of only one player that does this with the Leafs, frankly I surprised this is even discussed.

Franson is not a good skater, he doesn't roam all over the ice. Not sure if some here know what a rover is in hockey definition terms.

 

[mikebel111*]

We won't know who truly he meant, and don't think it really matters. Obviously Carlyle likes Gardiner with his ice time increasing as the season went on. Ended up playing one of the top ES minutes on our blueline. Either Carlyle likes him, or Carlyle went full crazy.

Also noted in the video is how he sticks up for Kadri, saying you look around the league, and you tell me how many other 23 year old players you see putting up 50 points.

Nonis better have been watching that press conference, because by the sounds of it, Carlyle doesn't want Jake or Kadri to go anywhere

 

[Nithoniniel]

Really, a young rover description only fits 2 players on the roster. Franson does not play like a rover, nor is he that young.

A rover by definition is a player that is neither a defenceman or a forward.

A rover plays all over the ice, without contraints of either position. Basically it is a player that roams all over the ice where he sees fit to go.

I can think of only one player that does this with the Leafs, frankly I surprised this is even discussed.

Franson is not a good skater, he doesn't roam all over the ice. Not sure if some here know what a rover is in hockey definition terms.

I addressed your point about young in the very post you quoted.

And sure, you might have a point about the 'rover' term. I wrote myself that it's a point that says Gardiner more than Franson. So even if I completely buy your point, that makes it 1 point that doesn't fit Franson at all and 1 point that doesn't fit Gardiner at all. So why be so absolutely sure it's one over the other?

 

[King85Kong]

Nonis better have been watching that press conference, because by the sounds of it, Carlyle doesn't want Jake or Kadri to go anywhere

Hopefully he was watching.
But this thread is . Just going around in circles speculating. No one knows for sure. All that matters is that Carlyle had trust in Gardiner to play him so much. Obviously doesn't have a major problem with him.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I addressed your point about young in the very post you quoted.

And sure, you might have a point about the 'rover' term. I wrote myself that it's a point that says Gardiner more than Franson. So even if I completely buy your point, that makes it 1 point that doesn't fit Franson at all and 1 point that doesn't fit Gardiner at all. So why be so absolutely sure it's one over the other?

I wasn't talking to you specifically, I was actually agreeing with you, rover fits Gardiner more than Franson.

Franson to me is a 26 soon to be 27 year old big, lumbering, PP specialist. I would never refer to him as a young rover.

Anyway, thanks, I have said my piece here.

 

[Purity*]

I wasn't talking to you specifically, I was actually agreeing with you, rover fits Gardiner more than Franson.

Franson to me is a 26 soon to be 27 year old big, lumbering, PP specialist. I would never refer to him as a young rover.

Anyway, thanks, I have said my piece here.

Maybe you wouldn't, but Randy would. I'm 100% sure he was referring to Franson, listen to it again and take the context into consideration of how Gardiner played near the end of the season (you never like to acknowledge points like these for players you don't like) and how Franson played at the end of the season, it should be pretty clear he was talking about Franson.

Not that I really care, because my opinion of both of you certainly isn't anything respectable.

 

[diceman934]

Really, a young rover description only fits 2 players on the roster. Franson does not play like a rover, nor is he that young.

A rover by definition is a player that is neither a defenceman or a forward.

A rover plays all over the ice, without contraints of either position. Basically it is a player that roams all over the ice where he sees fit to go.

I can think of only one player that does this with the Leafs, frankly I surprised this is even discussed.

Franson is not a good skater, he doesn't roam all over the ice. Not sure if some here know what a rover is in hockey definition terms.

You seem lost so I will clarify this for you. Franson was playing like a high forward at the offensive blueline, making poor pinches and standing still etc. That would be what a Rover would do. Franson had his leash tighten at the end of the season, we all can agree on this surely! Franson's has proven that he has a very high opinion of himself, on several occasions. When Wilson sat him in the press box he complained to the Media about how he was an NHL D man and a good one and he could not understand why others were playing ahead of him. Then this past season when he failed to apply for arbitration and was seeking 5M plus a season.

Just in case you forgot here is the link: http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/10/12/frustrated-franson-grows-tired-of-waiting/

Does this sound like a player that has a high opinion of himself?

"I expected to come here and be a key part of this team,” Franson says. “I had eight goals last year and was plus-10 on a team that couldn’t score. I had a lot of confidence coming here. It’s tough to keep that the way this has turned out.” Remember he said this before ever playing a game for the Leafs!

Not a part of the top 6 dman, but a key part!

Any questions as to who has a high opinion of himself.....it is ok to be wrong!

 

[The Winter Soldier]

You seem lost so I will clarify this for you. Franson was playing like a high forward at the offensive blueline, making poor pinches and standing still etc. That would be what a Rover would do. Franson had his leash tighten at the end of the season, we all can agree on this surely! Franson's has proven that he has a very high opinion of himself, on several occasions. When Wilson sat him in the press box he complained to the Media about how he was an NHL D man and a good one and he could not understand why others were playing ahead of him. Then this past season when he failed to apply for arbitration and was seeking 5M plus a season.

Just in case you forgot here is the link: http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/10/12/frustrated-franson-grows-tired-of-waiting/

Does this sound like a player that has a high opinion of himself?

"I expected to come here and be a key part of this team,” Franson says. “I had eight goals last year and was plus-10 on a team that couldn’t score. I had a lot of confidence coming here. It’s tough to keep that the way this has turned out.”

Not a part of the top 6 dman, but a key part!

Any questions as to who has a high opinion of himself.....it is ok to be wrong!

Pinching = being a Rover?

Sorry this is silly for you to claim, then we have 6 rovers playing D for us last season.

Maybe Dion, Gardiner are our biggest rovers. Since they seem to pinch the most.

 

[diceman934]

Pinching = being a Rover?

Sorry this is silly even for you, then we have 6 rovers playing D for us last season.

Maybe Dion, Gardiner are our biggest rovers. Since they seem to pinch the most.

I said he was playing like a high forward, that is what Franson was doing....by definition a D man playing like a forward is what? I would call that an a Rover if there was such a position.

I gave you proof of just who has a high opinion of himself.....his own words and you, just use redirection and spin as always. You were and are still wrong!

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I said he was playing like a high forward, that is what Franson was doing....by definition a D man playing like a forward is what? I would call that an a Rover if there was such a position.

I gave you proof of just who has a high opinion of himself.....his own words and you, just use redirection and spin as always. You were and are still wrong!

Thread is about Gardiner, one can claim if any of our D played more as a high forward last year it was him. And he is young, is this not true?

 

[ULF_55]

I said he was playing like a high forward, that is what Franson was doing....by definition a D man playing like a forward is what? I would call that an a Rover if there was such a position.

I gave you proof of just who has a high opinion of himself.....his own words and you, just use redirection and spin as always. You were and are still wrong!

I just think Franson's skating makes it appear he's pinching all the time.

More likely just to slow to react to the counter attacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rover_(ice_hockey)

 

[Diatomic]

i can't even remember the post now - but ... kay - I'm so nice, I'll do it again for you:

I'm not going to go through the time stamps - but this is what you are going to look for.



near the end - someone asked regarding the kids or bright spots or something. Randy looks up and he has a bright smile on his face and says something akin to We have Rielly, and Jake, and a 23 year old who scored 50 points, you tell me what other 23 year olds who can do that. He says their NAMES. maybe it's my english literature degree kicking in here, but you don't have a big smile and name someone and less than a minute later go

"well there's a certain player who braw braw braw...."


the media is trying to make this into a drahmah so if a trade regarding Gardiner happens they have their storyline. I don't think we should be moving Kadri/Gardiner - we should be giving them JVR deals and eat up some UFA years) and then see when to move them. but this will start another circular argument.


(editing to add - maybe he was talking about Rielly - but again, I don't think he'd smile and praise him and less than a minute late backhand compliment him).

I still think its Jake, my mind's telling me this fool Carlyle was targeting him. Jake had a terrific end of the season, maybe because he was almost near PPG he thought he was Karlsson 2.0 or something and the old dinosaur heard him and had to grill him lol.

Plus Franson isn't a rover. Gardiner is the very definition of a rover. He's uncontrollable and his skating allows him to go where he pleases. Meanwhile, Franson is skating on quick sand and can't go anywhere.

 

[SprDaVE]

Franson pinches a lot... but he's very unsuccessful at it, unlike Gardiner and Phaneuf.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I still think its Jake, my mind's telling me this fool Carlyle was targeting him. Jake had a terrific end of the season, maybe because he was almost near PPG he thought he was Karlsson 2.0 or something and the old dinosaur heard him and had to grill him lol.

Plus Franson isn't a rover. Gardiner is the very definition of a rover. He's uncontrollable and his skating allows him to go where he pleases. Meanwhile, Franson is skating on quick sand and can't go anywhere.

The player that fits this description is Jake, no one else on the Leafs.

No one else would benefit more from a longer leash on our defence than Jake.

Gardiner was the definition of a rover when this team collapsed. He was in the offensive zone just as much as the defensive zone, at times more.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I just think Franson's skating makes it appear he's pinching all the time.

More likely just to slow to react to the counter attacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rover_(ice_hockey)

The term is sometimes used to informally describe fast, rushing offensive defencemen, such as former NHL star Scott Niedermayer, as they often roam the ice creating offensive pressure instead of being simply "blueliners".

The term is also used to describe the extra attacker, who roams the ice instead of assuming their usual positions

Doesn't sound like Franson does it? Plus Franson is 26, 27 this year. Not young by NHL standards.

 

[leafs in five]

Doesn't sound like Franson does it? Plus Franson is 26, 27 this year. Not young by NHL standards.

Bozak is young tho