Klank Loves You
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- Feb 21, 2015
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Jake Allen
- Thread starter Blanick
- Start date
Falco Lombardi
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Until the fanbase turns on him after 3 years.
Klank Loves You
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Falco Lombardi
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Blues fans: Why can’t we ever find a goalie?
Also Blues fans: It’s game 1 of the season and we’re getting shut out with many of the same issues of a year ago but damnit ITS ALL JAKE ALLEN’S FAULT. BRONX CHEERS GUYS!
carter333167
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- Apr 24, 2013
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I wasn’t in favor of the Bronx cheers. Pretty silly.
Regarding Allen, however, he is probably not going to make it here. Needs a fresh start somewhere else to salvage any chance of being a #1.
Concerning his play, ask yourself this: how often can we say that he markedly outplays the other goaltender? I think everyone agrees that it has become a pretty rare occurrence. Helle stopped 41 of 42 last night. Allen stopped 20 of 25.
Majorityof1
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Just looking at the save/shots x 100% ignores context of the type of saves the goalie had to make. Is a goalie who stops 20 of 25 super high-danger scoring chances getting outplayed by one who makes 40 relatively routine saves? That's obviously not the full story here, as Jake flubbed at least 1 easy one and Hellboy made an outstanding save or two. But Jake did make some outstanding saves, had little chance on a few goals while we did put a ton of rubber right into Hellebuyck's chest. To put this in more context, even though we almost doubled their shot out put, High Danger chances were dead-even and we had far less 5v5. We missed fired on a lot of those high danger chances too, and the Jets did not.
bleedblue1223
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People can be upset about the Bronx cheers for Allen, but lets not act like the rest of the team doesn't receive them either. How many times do we do that when the powerplay finally gets a shot.
I agree with this, besides the last goal. That was all Allen. Other than that, though, he looked pretty solid, especially through the first 2 periods.Allen was fantastic until that SHG last night. Not surprising that Blues fans are quick to pounce on a goalie (especially one who has struggled mightily), but I was actually reassured by Allen’s game last night.
carter333167
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The lack of consistency almost certainly is caused by being positionally unsound. The odds favor the goaltender if he achieves proper positioning. Jake’s style though has never really been a position based, quiet style. Husso by contrast plays that style.
I think most rational, sympathetic people want to see Jake succeed. It's in everyone's interest (within the org and fanbase anyway) for him to do well and establish himself as an upper-echelon goalie in this league. But everybody wanted to see Jaskin become a capable scorer and sometimes things just don't work out for whatever reason. Right now we've got a 'tornado warning' with the goaltending situation. Nothing has been spotted yet, but conditions are favorable for it all to go to hell in a hurry. There are a confluence of factors that would make this situation tenuous for even the most unflappable of goalies. It's not unreasonable for folks to worry now, even if it's only been 1 game. Because the truth is, it hasn't been one game...it's been dozens, hundreds even, that have made people weary of Jake's ability to carry this team TO the playoffs, let alone deep into them.
Good article from Justin Bourne talks about the importance of games early in the season:
Good article from Justin Bourne talks about the importance of games early in the season:
The Blues can't afford to dig themselves an early hole in the Central and have their starting goalie once again battling his confidence. Does Yeo go to Johnson tomorrow to avoid even the possibility of two rough outings in a row to start the season for Allen? Even if he plays 'ok', it's going to get ugly in a hurry if Allen loses to Chicago and gives up 4 or more goals.
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PiggySmalls
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- Mar 7, 2015
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Didn’t we say the same thing in 2014 for Jake Allen?
Klank Loves You
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Falco Lombardi
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EastonBlues22
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I wanted to piggyback off this for a quick tangent without commenting on this game specifically.
Hypothetical scenario (loosely based off Blues team performance in recent years), if you're giving up 8 good scoring chances against and 21 low danger scoring chances on average as a team, would you rather have the goalie with a .850 HDSC SV% and a .915 LDSC SV%, or the one with a .800 HDSC SV% and a .940 LDSC SV%?
Even though the former is > 6% better at stopping high danger shots and only < 3% worse at stopping low danger shots than the second goalie, the latter goalie's GAA is still going to be better (2.86 GAA vs 2.99 GAA) because the shot type disparity disproportionately emphasizes the value of stopping "routine" shots.
We've seen this firsthand in recent years with the Blues, as goalies like Elliott and Hutton have (often handily) outperformed Allen behind the same team, in spite of Allen fairly consistently having a higher HDSC SV%.
With that in mind, I think the value of making "routine" saves is too often minimized. Your fundamentals still have to be on point, or you are going to leak (a lot) more goals than you should.
If, for example, you're deeper in your net, you're inevitably going to give up more goals to late deflections and screens than a goalie who more aggressively presses that initial angle. It may look like it's "not the goalie's fault," but it most certainly can be a direct byproduct of things completely under his control, and other goalies would make those saves simply because they're far enough out on their angle (and square enough) that there's zero net exposed, rendering any puck bounces directly in front of them moot.
Theoretically the goalie that stays deeper will have other advantages as compensation, such as an advantage on any potential rebound (having to travel less distance to recover or re-position on a new angle) as a trade-off benefit, but the "value" of those advantages depends on many different things (like how good the goalie's rebound control is, how good the defense is at contesting/clearing rebounds, etc.). Do the advantages there make up for the initial disadvantages? It just depends. For Allen's particular case, I think the historical evidence pretty strongly suggests that it doesn't.
Anyway, all I really want to see from Allen is some evidence that his past struggles with "routine" saves are behind him. I didn't see anything that I considered to be a particularly encouraging sign in that first game, but it's just one game. We'll see how it goes.
carter333167
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One issue not often discussed here is how the defensive scheme can be negatively affected if the D-men don’t have confidence that the goalie will make the initial save and/or don’t have confidence that the goalie is taking the primary shooter and remaining square to that shooter(as opposed to anticipating the pass and starting a lateral move prematurely). Folks talk about how the defense seemed to be more stable in front of Hutton. It might have something to do with how Hutton played his position from a fundamental perspective.
In any case, I’m excited to see the next 20 or so games to see if Allen changed any of his fundamentals over the summer.
In any case, I’m excited to see the next 20 or so games to see if Allen changed any of his fundamentals over the summer.
I don't know a lot about the technical aspects of playing goalie, but I have seen enough of Allen that I expected he'd miss the second goal, and knew it would be quickly followed by another. Not that he never saves a breakaway...but 3rd period, team not scoring, he's made some good saves to keep it close, other team gets a giveaway...seen it too many times at this point. He's not the kind of goalie that's going to battle for 60 minutes, he's going to have lapses.
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5 goals again tonight. Husso with the shutout in SA. I’m just here to watch the world burn.
Linkens Mastery
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NHL vs AHL talent, not taking anything away from Husso, but, he hasn't played a full game in the NHL, especially with a crapshoot team like the Blues are right now.
mw2noobbuster
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mw2noobbuster
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Yup. Whoever the goalie is won't matter with how much of a joke the Blues defensive zone structure is right now.
I thought Allen looked better in game 2 than in game 1. He made some pretty important saves. I'm more concerned about our defense at the moment. I'd like to see how we fair defensively when Edmundson is back. With him back in the lineup, you can kick Butler out of the lineup, and demote Bouwmeester to the third pairing to run this:
Edmundson - Pietrangelo
Dunn - Parayko
Bouwmeester - Schmaltz/Bortuzzo
Pietrangelo has better support with Edmundson on his pairing, and Bouwmeester can have some sheltered minutes with Schmaltz/Bortz, as it appears he's been struggling these past 2 games. He needs some weaker competition, and it would be nice to have a seasoned vet and good skater/puck mover to play with Schmaltz (as opposed to Butler). Edmundson is important not only to have on that top pairing, but because it shifts the rest of the left side into a much more comfortable position, as well as giving ideal partners for the right side. He's a big cog in our defensive structure.
Edmundson - Pietrangelo
Dunn - Parayko
Bouwmeester - Schmaltz/Bortuzzo
Pietrangelo has better support with Edmundson on his pairing, and Bouwmeester can have some sheltered minutes with Schmaltz/Bortz, as it appears he's been struggling these past 2 games. He needs some weaker competition, and it would be nice to have a seasoned vet and good skater/puck mover to play with Schmaltz (as opposed to Butler). Edmundson is important not only to have on that top pairing, but because it shifts the rest of the left side into a much more comfortable position, as well as giving ideal partners for the right side. He's a big cog in our defensive structure.
Em etah Eh
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topshelf331
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While I'm not sold on Allen after the last few seasons. Last nights game was more on the coaches than Allen. Quenville adjusted they way they were playing and Yeo couldn't or didn't respond.
