Jagr vs Crosby, who "was" more talented?

[daver]

No one could spin and turn and change paces the way Jagr could in his prime. His agility was out of this world, especially for a such a big man. Jagr also did it with players hanging off of his back.

Crosby was better at lacing his skates?

 

[livewell68]

Crosby was better at lacing his skates?

Nice sarcasm.

As some have said, the comparison isn't fair for Crosby.

 

[crabcz]

Crosby is more robotic/consistent with his approach, Jagr is emotional/moody.

 

[Joedaman55]

Jagr was more talented. A huge aspect that is often underrated about Jagr is his size and strength; he's up there as one of the strongest people to ever play in the NHL.

I think Crosby has better hockey sense and offensive awareness. Skating wise they are pretty close, puck control and stickhandling it's Jagr (not close), shooting ability is a mixed bag. If Jagr had more drive in the middle of his career I don't think this could be a discussion.

 

[livewell68]

Jagr was more talented. A huge aspect that is often underrated about Jagr is his size and strength; he's up there as one of the strongest people to ever play in the NHL.

I think Crosby has better hockey sense and Skating wise they are pretty close, puck control and stickhandling it's Jagr (not close), shooting ability is a mixed bag. If Jagr had more drive in the middle of his career I don't think this could be a discussion.

What are you talking about? Jagr, the same player who is considered at best to be the 5th best offensive player of all-time and at worst the 6th best behind Hull?

Jagr's offensive awareness was head and shoulders above Crosby's. Jagr was 2nd or better in scoring 7x in his career.

 

[livewell68]

Crosby is more robotic/consistent with his approach, Jagr is emotional/moody.

This has nothing to do with talent. Even Jagr half assing it in Washington was as talented as Crosby.

 

[Eisen]

It's Jagr for me, no slight to Crosby.

 

[MXD]

I have to say Jagr, but...

Does size come into this?

 

[Voight]

Crosby has/had the talent to win multiple times too, he just got injured. Seems like an irrelevant point to make.

He was plenty healthy in 08-09 and 09-10. So its a very relevant point to make.

Jagr even won the Art Ross in '00 while missing 19 games, so even when he was injured he was still winning scoring titles.

 

[MXD]

Jagr was more talented. A huge aspect that is often underrated about Jagr is his size and strength; he's up there as one of the strongest people to ever play in the NHL.

That's the thing... There are a number of things Jagr could do, or get away with, exactly because of his size.

Size, in itself, isn't a skill. To Jagr's credit, he used it really well, something that cannot be said of all "skill" players.

We'd never know what would have been if Jagr was Crosby-sized, or average sized. Give Jagr average size, and I'm pretty sure he does not compare well with Crosby.

 

[livewell68]

That's the thing... There are a number of things Jagr could do, or get away with, exactly because of his size.

Size, in itself, isn't a skill. To Jagr's credit, he used it really well, something that cannot be said of all "skill" players.

We'd never know what would have been if Jagr was Crosby-sized, or average sized. Give Jagr average size, and I'm pretty sure he does not compare well with Crosby.

Why?

Jagr outside of his size, was a great skater, a great playmaker, stickandler, shooter and was also a hard worker.

People also forget that Jagr arrived to the NHL as a skinny 198 lbs 18 year old. He wasn't born 210-245 lbs.

 

[authentic]

What are you talking about? Jagr, the same player who is considered at best to be the 5th best offensive player of all-time and at worst the 6th best behind Hull?

Jagr's offensive awareness was head and shoulders above Crosby's. Jagr was 2nd or better in scoring 7x in his career.

Not sure how you could believe that... it was maybe equal to Crosby's at best.

 

[livewell68]

Not sure how you could believe that... it was maybe equal to Crosby's at best.

At best? Jagr starting in 1993-94 and ending in 2001-02 was top 10 in scoring or better for 9 straight seasons, then again in 2005-06 and 2006-07. Jagr is the most offensively gifted player outside of the Big 4.

On the flip side, there is not much separating Crosby from Sakic, Yzerman, Malkin and Ovechkin in terms of offense.

 

[livewell68]

Not sure how you could believe that... it was maybe equal to Crosby's at best.

For a player that's only won 2 Art Ross trophies, he's getting awfully overrated for his offense.

Jagr averaged 1.54 PPG for 7 seasons between 1994-95 and 2000-01. Crosby topped off at 1.52 in a full season.

 

[MXD]

Why?

Jagr outside of his size, was a great skater, a great playmaker, stickandler, shooter and was also a hard worker.

People also forget that Jagr arrived to the NHL as a skinny 198 lbs 18 year old. He wasn't born 210-245 lbs.

Well, I'd give the nod to Crosby for skating and playmaking, and Jagr is hardly anything special for hard-working (besides... that's not really a skill). Jagr was/is definitely a better "stopped" stickhandler (but size comes in this), but in movement? Wash as far as I'm concerned. I'd give Jagr an advantage in shooting, but that's really it.

 

[livewell68]

Well, I'd give the nod to Crosby for skating and playmaking, and Jagr is hardly anything special for hard-working (besides... that's not really a skill). Jagr was/is definitely a better "stopped" stickhandler (but size comes in this), but in movement? Wash as far as I'm concerned. I'd give Jagr an advantage in shooting, but that's really it.

Jagr had a 60 + assists 8 times in his career, so not sure how you could say Crosby was a better playmaker. Jagr was also bigger and heavier so required more power to skate as fast and yet managed to do so pretty well.

Jagr had seasons of 87 assists (most ever by a winger) and 83. He also had 69 twice.





Also what's to say Crosby doesn't become a worse skater if he's taller and heavier?

Also Jagr's work ethic is considered legendary and he didn't bulk up and become a strong 245 lbs player by being lazy, he worked his butt off. Jar might have lacked drive in Washington for 3 years but that was just 3 years out of a career that spanned 20 some years in the NHL.

Prucha once said when he was Jagr's teammate and roommate in New York that "everybody else is sleeping, Jagr is working out and training". Jagr also used to run up and down the Igloo stairs with a 20 lbs vest on his chest when he was a 20-24 year old Penguin.

 

[MXD]

Jagr had a 60 + assists 8 times in his career, so not sure how you could say Crosby was a better playmaker.

I watched them play??

 

[livewell68]

I watched them play??

Jagr is a winger and by default his role is to score goals, Crosby is a center and is supposed distribute to his winger, he plays the middle so has equal distance to pass to his wingers.

Yet despite this, Jagr finished top 5 in assists more times than Crosby. Crosby has led the league in assists once, Jagr three times.

Jagr also got all those assists without deferring to his teammates, the only time Crosby decided to become a goalscorer, his assists dropped. Jagr got 83 assists with Hrdina and Miller as his line mates. He turned Prucha into a 30 goalscorer.

Jagr was top 5 in goals and assists in the same season 6 times, Crosby never accomplished this feat.

 

[MXD]

Jagr is a winger and by default his role is to score goals, Crosby is a center and is supposed distribute to his winger, he plays the middle so has equal distance to pass to his wingers.

Yet despite this, Jagr finished top 5 in assists more times than Crosby.
.

We're talking about skill, not end-of-season finishes. And this is a BAD argument.

 

[Voight]

[MOD]

Yet despite this, Jagr finished top 5 in assists more times than Crosby. Crosby has led the league in assists once, Jagr three times.

Jagr also got all those assists without deferring to his teammates, the only time Crosby decided to become a goalscorer, his assists dropped. Jagr got 83 assists with Hrdina and Miller as his line mates. He turned Prucha into a 30 goalscorer.

Jagr was top 5 in goals and assists in the same season 6 times, Crosby never accomplished this feat.

Lets not forget Jagr did this while playing in the same time period as Oates, a top 4 all time passer.

 

[livewell68]

We're talking about skill, not end-of-season finishes. And this is a BAD argument.

Then tell me how you quantify playmaking? If Jagr had better assists finishes, how can you still say Crosby was a better playmaker?

Crosby is always looking to pass, Jagr was just as likely to get an assist as he was to score a goal.

Jagr had seasons of 62 goals, 87 assists, 149 Pts; 44 goals, 83 assists, 127 Pts; and 52 goals, 69 assists, 121 Pts.

Jagr has over 1000 career assists while having over 700 career goals. His numbers, scoring finishes, his assists totals all speak for themselves.

Crosby has a career full of what if's. Also Crosby has had seasons of less than 30 goals in his prime, Jagr had 15 consecutive 30 goals and 15 consecutive 70 Pts seasons (both NHL records).

 

[Big Phil]

I'm still going to say Jagr based on talent. I know anyone can point to a compilation of great plays from one player but just look at this.



I'd tell you to watch a specific goal but they are all spectacular.

The thing with Jagr is that I never thought "Why can't he do that more often?" If Jagr wanted to score a goal he scored. He could deke a defenseman or a goalie out of their jock. As good as Crosby is, there are several times when I thought he was holding back. We all know how remarkable he can be at splitting the defense, but too many times I saw Crosby make a pass to a much weaker teammate when he's in a great position himself. So for me it's Jagr.

 

[Voight]

In his two full seasons with the Caps, he scored 79 and 77 points.

I wonder how well he would've done if he wasn't stuck on a very average team. He scored 121 the year before the trade so with better line mates 100 plus wouldn't be unreasonable.

 

[MXD]

Then tell me how you quantify playmaking?

I watched the players. Objectively.

 

[livewell68]

I watched the players. Objectively.

I'll take the player who did it multiple times over full seasons.

Jagr at his peak was a better playmaker than Crosby.