Jagr vs Crosby, who "was" more talented?

[livewell68]

Why in the hell that would happen?

Anything can happen and if you think 2014-15 Crosby is anywhere near as good as previous years Crosby then you need a reality check.

I could care less if Crosby wins an Art Ross with his 85 pts in 77 games or whatever it is.

That will not put him on Jagr's level. After all, I thought Crosby was supposed to crush the competition this year and score 120 pts....

Posters claim scoring is down, well scoring was down in DPE as well and Jagr found a way not to crap the bed and actually put up 100 pts.

Have we lowered our expectations for Crosby that 85 pts is seen as great?

Jagr at his worst in Washington had better PPG than this.

Are we also supposed to also believe that the competition is harder when 85 pts wins you an Art Ross?

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Anything can happen and if you think 2014-15 Crosby is anywhere near as good as previous years Crosby then you need a reality check.

I could care less if Crosby wins an Art Ross with his 85 pts in 77 games or whatever it is.

That will not put him on Jagr's level. After all, I thought Crosby was supposed to crush the competition this year and score 120 pts....

Posters claim scoring is down, well scoring was down in DPE as well and Jagr found a way not to crap the bed and actually put up 100 pts.

Have we lowered our expectations for Crosby that 85 pts is seen as great?

Jagr at his worst in Washington had better PPG than this.

Are we also supposed to also believe that the competition is harder when 85 pts wins you an Art Ross?

This is the thing. Crosby at his worst is still going to win the art ross. A down year results in a scoring title. Crosby has turned it up the last month and I predict him to be back to 100 points next year. He will grab the ross this year and continue to dominate....

 

[livewell68]

This is the thing. Crosby at his worst is still going to win the art ross. A down year results in a scoring title. Crosby has turned it up the last month and I predict him to be back to 100 points next year. He will grab the ross this year and continue to dominate....

It's good for Crosby but when we're comparing him to Jagr, it just won't cut it.

Shouldn't this year's scoring race put to rest the notion that Jagr couldn't dominate as much today because of..... insert lame excuses.

Folks if you really don't think Jagr is more talented than Crosby, go check out the two goals he scored last night against Ottawa in a crucial playoff positioning game.

This btw is a 43 year old Jagr who's about 4-5 steps slower than a prime Jagr but he's still playing 17-19 minutes a game with Florida.

If you don't think a prime Jagr could keep up today then you're out to lunch.

15 pts (5 goals) in 16 games with Florida is not bad for an old, slow and over the hill player.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

It's good for Crosby but when we're comparing him to Jagr, it just won't cut it.

Shouldn't this year's scoring race put to rest the notion that Jagr couldn't dominate as much today because of..... insert lame excuses.

Folks if you really don't think Jagr is more talented than Crosby, go check out the two goals he scored last night against Ottawa in a crucial playoff positioning game.

This btw is a 43 year old Jagr who's about 4-5 steps slower than a prime Jagr but he's still playing 17-19 minutes a game with Florida.

If you don't think a prime Jagr could keep up today then you're out to lunch.

15 pts (5 goals) in 16 games with Florida is not bad for an old, slow and over the hill player.

Of course jagr is gonna be able to put points up. Hockey iq never leaves which is why crosby will still be an affective player for another 10+ years. The fact that crosby will win the ross this year or at least come close is telling.

 

[livewell68]

Of course jagr is gonna be able to put points up. Hockey iq never leaves which is why crosby will still be an affective player for another 10+ years. The fact that crosby will win the ross this year or at least come close is telling.

Here's a hint, not many players have played past the age of 40, let alone 43.

It doesn't mean because Jagr is still playing and still playing at a high level that Crosby will automatically be doing the same when he's older.

For every Howe or Jagr there is a Forsberg, Sakic, Gretzky who don't play past 38.

The only thing telling if Crosby wins is how weak the competition is.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Here's a hint, not many players have played past the age of 40, let alone 43.

It doesn't mean because Jagr is still playing and still playing at a high level that Crosby will automatically be doing the same when he's older.

For every Howe or Jagr there is a Forsberg, Sakic, Gretzky who don't play past 38.

The only thing telling if Crosby wins is how weak the competition is.

Ovechkin stamkos Malkin Etc are not weak competition. Ovechkin and Malkin alone are better than any forward jagr faced minus lemieux

 

[livewell68]

Ovechkin stamkos Malkin Etc are not weak competition. Ovechkin and Malkin alone are better than any forward jagr faced minus lemieux

Says you right?

What has Malkin done in the last 3 years?

Look at their respect career PPP's, they are no better than Selanne's, Bure's, Sakic's, Lindros' or Kariya's during Jagr's 4 Art Ross wins.

In fact I already wrote an entire post in this about 2 pages back, go read it.

Selanne, Kariya, Bure and Lindros were 96-97 pts players during Jagr's reign.

Forsberg was a 99 pts player. Sakic was a 105 pts player.

That is without a doubt better competition.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

This is the history board. Let's leave future projection to the main board. Thanks.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Says you right?

What has Malkin done in the last 3 years?

Look at their respect career PPP's, they are no better than Selanne's, Bure's, Sakic's, Lindros' or Kariya's during Jagr's 4 Art Ross wins.

In fact I already wrote an entire post in this about 2 pages back, go read it.

Selanne, Kariya, Bure and Lindros were 96-97 pts players during Jagr's reign.

Forsberg was a 99 pts player. Sakic was a 105 pts player.

That is without a doubt better competition.

Malkin was second in ppg last year and is second in ppg this year again and is on pace for a relatively healthy season with 71 games.

Ovechkin is on pace for his 3rd straight goal scoring title and 5th overall in his career. Is one of the best goal scorers in history and the second best LW in history.

Crosby is outscoring and has a higher ppg than both. He's raving great players

 

[livewell68]

Malkin was second in ppg last year and is second in ppg this year again and is on pace for a relatively healthy season with 71 games.

Ovechkin is on pace for his 3rd straight goal scoring title and 5th overall in his career. Is one of the best goal scorers in history and the second best LW in history.

Crosby is outscoring and has a higher ppg than both. He's raving great players

You keep naming the same 2 players, players who's PPG over the last 3 years have been much lower than Bure's, Sakic's, Forsberg's, Selanne's, Lindros' or Kariya's.

You keep naming 2 players I name 6 that were equal or better.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

You keep naming the same 2 players, players who's PPG over the last 3 years have been much lower than Bure's, Sakic's, Forsberg's, Selanne's, Lindros' or Kariya's.

You keep naming 2 players I name 6 that were equal or better.

None of those guys you named are better than crosby so it's pointless.

 

[Beau Knows]

You keep naming the same 2 players, players who's PPG over the last 3 years have been much lower than Bure's, Sakic's, Forsberg's, Selanne's, Lindros' or Kariya's.

You keep naming 2 players I name 6 that were equal or better.

Ovechkin was ranked ahead of all those wingers already on the top 60 wingers project, and he isn't even 30 yet. None of them were as good as Ovechkin. Crosby is facing a winger who might go down as a top 5 winger of all time. And his career has completely overlapped with his.

 

[livewell68]

None of those guys you named are better than crosby so it's pointless.

Sure about this?

Crosby has 239 pts over the past 187 games (PPG of 1.28).

Sakic had a PPG of 1.28 as well between 1997-98 and 2000-01 and he was only second best.

Jagr had a PPG of 1.48 in that timeframe.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Sure about this?

Crosby has 239 pts over the past 187 games (PPG of 1.28).

Sakic had a PPG of 1.28 as well between 1997-98 and 2000-01 and he was only second best.

Jagr had a PPG of 1.48 in that timeframe.

Crosby is still in his prime. But his peak was 2011-2013. If you put a 23 year old crosby against a 1999 jagr it would be a very close scoring race. Not to mention that crosby was also playing a great 200 foot game at his peak.

 

[daver]

I thought we had moved well past comparing PPG's and point totals from different eras for the very good reason that it's a waste of time and space.

 

[livewell68]

I thought we had moved well past comparing PPG's and point totals from different eras for the very good reason that it's a waste of time and space.

Why? Because it heavily favors Jagr?

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

2012-13-present

Ppg leaders

Crosby 1.28 105 point pace
Malkin 1.12 92 point pace

As you can see in crosbys undisputed reign as the best player in the world he is dominating Malkin.

I find it more impressive to be dominating against Malkin than Sakic.

 

[livewell68]

2012-13-present

Ppg leaders

Crosby 1.28 105 point pace
Malkin 1.12 92 point pace

As you can see in crosbys undisputed reign as the best player in the world he is dominating Malkin.

Malkin who has a worse PPG than all of Sakic, Selanne, Forsberg, Bure, Kariya and Lindros?

I thought Jagr's competition was worse?

I thought Ovechkin, Malkin and Stamkos were better?

Also Jagr's gap in PPG over Sakic between 1997-98 and 2000-01 was 0.20, which is higher than Crosby's gap over Malkin (0.16).

You find what more impressive? Malkin based on PPG is inferior to 6 of Jagr's direct competitors during the DPE.

Sakic was putting up Crosby like PPG's during Jagr's dominant years.

Btw daver, the league wide gpg were similar during the DPE as they are right now so we can 100% compare players from the DPE to now.

So the competition's PPG is important to look at.

 

[Czech Your Math]

2012-13-present

Ppg leaders

Crosby 1.28 105 point pace
Malkin 1.12 92 point pace

As you can see in crosbys undisputed reign as the best player in the world he is dominating Malkin.

I find it more impressive to be dominating against Malkin than Sakic.

'11-12 to present:

Malkin 284 (1.23)
Crosby 276 (1.32)

Malkin with 8 more points (and 26 more goals) in 22 more games.
Seems pretty close to me.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

'11-12 to present:

Malkin 284 (1.23)
Crosby 276 (1.32)

Malkin with 8 more points (and 26 more goals) in 22 more games.
Seems pretty close to me.

Shows how good Malkin is and crosby still outperforms him. Malkin>Sakic imo

 

[daver]

'11-12 to present:

Malkin 284 (1.23)
Crosby 276 (1.32)

Malkin with 8 more points (and 26 more goals) in 22 more games.
Seems pretty close to me.

When you start at 2011, yes it is.

Put in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2012, 2013 and see what happens.

 

[daver]

2012-13-present

Ppg leaders

Crosby 1.28 105 point pace
Malkin 1.12 92 point pace

As you can see in crosbys undisputed reign as the best player in the world he is dominating Malkin.

I find it more impressive to be dominating against Malkin than Sakic.

Based on what exactly?

I think Malkin, and OV are in the Sakic, Forsberg, Selanne tier.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I would put a 08-09 Malkin>1998-99 jagr

 

[daver]

I would put a 08-09 Malkin>1998-99 jagr

I assume you are including the playoffs. While that does need consideration there is a measure of unfairness to it.

Better to have a separate discussion about playoff performances which, IMO, moves Jagr down the ladder in comparison with his and Crosby's main rivals.

IMO, 2011/12 Malkin was just as impressive, or moreso, than Jagr's 98/99 season in terms of the gap between him and 2nd place and his PPG dominance over the other Top ten scorers that year.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I assume you are including the playoffs. While that does need consideration there is a measure of unfairness to it.

Better to have a separate discussion about playoff performances which, IMO, moves Jagr down the ladder in comparison with his and Crosby's main rivals.

IMO, 2011/12 Malkin was just as impressive, or moreso, than Jagr's 98/99 season in terms of the gap between him and 2nd place and his PPG dominance over the other Top ten scorers that year.

Yes I was using malkins playoffs. He not only beat a prime ovechkin and crosby directly for the art ross in healthy years. He also led the playoffs with 36 points. The first player since Mario 91-92 to sweep Both scoring titles.