Jacob Trouba being 'Sheltered'?

[Huffer]

Hmm. When I think about "sheltered", traditionally that's meant that players get favorable zone deployments, or play against weaker competition. Maybe this is my disconnect with this thread: neither of those things is true for Trouba.

I think yours is the common definition of sheltered myself.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I liked his game overall too (except for the penalties and a play where he coughed it up in the corner).

Trouba to me has always been likely stronger than his peers, but I'm wondering (asking the question because I don't know the answer), is he putting in the effort in the offseason to get bigger and stronger? And by that I mean the effort like Scheifele does?

Truthfully, there have been spots this year watching him where I wonder about his fitness level, and I'm not sure if he's any stronger now than two years ago. Whereas I think we can see Scheifele getting stronger every year.

Just me?

I've had the same thought. Scheifele sets the bar pretty high. I don't think we can expect every player to keep up with that (and I questioned his leadership potential, oy!). Is Trouba coming anywhere close though? I see he has put on weight, up to 202 now

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

That is not an article, it is a blog. They are not reporters, they are fans with an opinion. Can't tell someone, on one hand, to ignore relevant stat information but citing an irrelevant source on the other.

Now you are appealing to authority. You don't accept their evidence because you don't accept their credentials. Read the article/blog, whatever the H you want to call it. Accept their conclusion or refute it. It doesn't matter where it comes from. It matters whether they can back up their argument with fact. They can and do. +- is meaningless. It is random garbage. It is tempting to believe in it because it appears to give us one convenient number that sums up the overall value of a player. The trouble is that it just isn't accurate. Not even a little bit.

 

[Jaffray15]

I think yours is the common definition of sheltered myself.

What I mean and think is a proper definition is he's being sheltered from playing his game(More offensively then defensively).

If he develops into a defensive defenseman, I would think that's not what we expected him to be.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

The opinions on those blogs are no more, or less, relevant to that of my own or anyone else on these boards. The should not be held in any sort of esteem higher than any other poster. That is not limited to that site either, it is an fan blog that casts itself as any sort of authority on any hockey related topic. They are not hockey authorities and happen to be a group of people who made a webpage to journal their thoughts. That's it.

I actually feel zero need to defend my own view why I feel that the +/- stat is relevant. I am not trying to convince you or anyone else. It is just an opinion. My only point circles back to the fact that Stuart gets little love on here and is at the wrong end of ridicule; moreover, he is not an anchor to anyone and Trouba's shortcomings are his own and his own alone.

They back their opinions with facts and figures. That gives weight to their opinions.

Opinions need to be based on something. If not it is not an opinion. It is an unfounded statement. There is a difference. Saying that something is your opinion does not relieve you of the need to be able to back it up in order for your opinion to have value.

Making statements that you cannot or will not defend merely undermines your credibility. Referencing +- makes people question the credibility of everything else you say. Refusing to educate yourself on the subject will seal the deal.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Its pretty close to mob mentality. Stuart isn't an offensive dynamo but for what he is, he is pretty good. Maybe he is costing us a little bit more than I would like to pay for him but meh we don't have payroll issues.

Trouba, I think needs to play smarter. We don't need another big error prone D man out there. We need someone who can pick his spots. Personally I think it makes his next contract probably smaller then what everyone here thinks he will get

I have watched Stu a bit this year. I don't know if he is playing better or not but I have noticed him making some very good plays in at least 3-4 games. He has been better than I expected. I had intended to bring it up after 1 game earlier. By the time I had the opportunity I had forgotten the details. I would like to have brought it up at the time in the GDT but I can't type and watch hockey at the same time. Besides I PVR the games so I can skip the commercials, Lawless and other junk so I am at least 1/2 hour behind the live play.

 

[Huffer]

What I mean and think is a proper definition is he's being sheltered from playing his game(More offensively then defensively).

If he develops into a defensive defenseman, I would think that's not what we expected him to be.

I hear what you are saying (I think). Personally I think "sheltered" in the way it is used on this site, is closer to what YYG posted. It's giving a player "easier" assignments.

I think what you are saying is a little different myself, but no less valid.

Instead of "sheltering" when I read what you are saying what I think you're asking is, are they somehow "limiting" Trouba. I.E. Are they using him in such a way that could potentially limit the player he could become.

I don't want to get bogged down into semantics though because I think it's an interesting question no matter how you ask it. Which I think is,

"Is using Trouba in a tough defensive role, with Stuart as his partner, the best development path for Trouba, and will he become the best player he can be this way." (Is that sort of the question?)

 

[buggs]

Hmm. When I think about "sheltered", traditionally that's meant that players get favorable zone deployments, or play against weaker competition. Maybe this is my disconnect with this thread: neither of those things is true for Trouba.

That's the definition that floats about my mind typically (a frightening place, or so the wife tells me). So in the classical sense he isn't being sheltered, rather he's been assigned a definite role to play that doesn't ask for much scoring from him as it seems to largely be a defensive role. And that's fine, for what it is.

Regarding Stuart: if anyone digs back far enough into my posting past you'll find that when we were approaching the trade deadline as Stu's contract was expiring I was suggesting that we either trade him because he was respected by many teams in the league and could bring a good return or we re-sign him to a contract extension. We did precisely that with a four year deal which I thought was a bit long for term but the value was good. Obviously he has qualities that Jets management likes - leadership on and off the ice, willing to sacrifice the body, mentorship. That's all good and I wouldn't for a second knock him on any of that. He is a warrior.

That said I'm guilty as one of the #freetrouba bandwaggoners. To clarify I like Stu in his role as a bottom pairing defenseman. I think when you add his qualities that management values his deal is good and it's a logical place for Stu to play. But I've always envisioned him playing with a Pardy or Postma type of player and in that type of roll, not dissimilar to what we expect of our 4th line forwards. Some energy, hard hitting, give the other team fits for 8-12 minutes a game while the top two pairings eat up most of the minutes. I think Stu is very able to bring all of that to the table.

However I'm inclined to not go with the eye-test rather more along the lines of the numbers that Garret typically shows. Those numbers are not especially flattering to Stu whether one likes him or not. Nor am I concerned or especially interested in what a ten game sample size shows so a +/- leading the team is of little interest to me. For what it's worth, my eye-test shows Stuart making some stellar hits by lining guys up at the blue line, like on Toews last night. The catch being that I also take note of the misses and while I have no numbers to back it up (in classic eye-test fashion) I'll suggest Stu makes those hits <50% of the time. Missing leaves him in bad defensive position. If he's getting 15+ minutes a game that can become troublesome over the length of the season.

If any of my opinion ultimately bothers Stuart, he can console himself that he's making 10 million plus dollars over that four year contract and I'm an internet plebe wasting his time talking about him. I really don't think my calling Stuart an anchor with respect to Trouba affects him now or will ever. If anyone here disagrees with my stance, more than fair enough.

But I think ultimately playing with Stuart and in the role assigned to that pairing it may either hinder Trouba's development or even possibly his desire to play in Winnipeg long term. He's a very highly rated draft pick, arguably the best of his class. I expect even if he doesn't show it outwardly, like most high level athletes he has a strong ego and opinion on his self worth. Watching Dougie Hamilton get $6.75/season has got to have him thinking he should be worth something like that. I expect he's also smart enough to realize that his point totals need to be similar to a Hamilton/Shattenkirk/Pietrangelo to get the money they are getting. So it almost assuredly must be frustrating him to play the role he is getting. I'm completely guessing from an uninformed fan opinion at what he'll get for his next deal. But you have to think he'd be hoping for Hamilton money and term rather than something in the $3.5-4 range for only two years. Trouba's human, he's going to want more sooner, like anyone else in the world reasonably would want. I'm sure that his deal after that will be both larger and longer but will he want to sign it in Winnipeg if he's still playing behind both Buff and Myers?

Just thoughts running through my head with respect to Trouba, I certainly don't treat them as gospel nor do I expect anyone else to. Food for thought, nothing more.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

So with all this plus minus spam aside we can all agree he's not really being sheltered in any way but perhaps a couple mins of ice time less per game?

Yup.

 

[Tom ServoMST3K]

^^

It's important to remember when talking about low level NHL players they are the worst of the best.

They are in the top 1% of hockey players in the world, but only in the bottom 0.3% of that.

 

[Jaffray15]

But not playing near the same role he did, during his rookie season.

 

[CaptainChef]

This is the thing that concerns me. Gary Roberts essentially said that Trouba was lazy in the gym, which is a bit of red flag for me.

That one concerned me as well. The rumors surrounding Bogo & Troubs concerned me. His attitude sometimes concerns me.

Just wondering if we're going to have a real hard time signing this guy up on a long-term contract? Is he going to be one of these guys that just wants to sign for a few years until his EL contract is up & then will explore avenues to move on? Does he mesh into the existing room, or was Bogo his best buddy & now Bogo is gone?

Yep, have quite a few largely unsupported & perhaps unfounded concerns about Troubs. I could see us struggling to resign him, and having absolutely no problem signing Scheif up for whatever length we desire (because Scheifs just seems to be much more our type of guy).

Hope my fears are all unfounded - time will tell.

 

[Aavco Cup]

But not playing near the same role he did, during his rookie season.

All he's really missing from last year is PP time. He got both PP and PK minutes last year. With both PP units using 4 forwards that means Trouba and Enstrom's minutes will drop in games where we get multiple PP opportunities.

 

[Say What]

We must remember, Jacob Trouba is entering his 3rd season as a Winnipeg Jet. At the ripe old age of 21. Erik Karlsson had a similar start to his career (look at him now- age 25).

Jacob also plays a position that is not usually mastered until a player reaches their mid to late 20's. The 'kid' is doing fine. I predict 'STUD' status by the time he's 24 or 25 years old. Time will tell.

 

[BigZ65]

I'm more worried about Myers. He's 25 and looking a lot worse than Trouba so far this season. Trouba can lead a pairing, Myers is showing he needs to be led IMO.

 

[allan5oh]

I wouldn't say sheltered, but there is definitely something afoot between the coach and Trouba. He's no longer getting any PP time. He averaged two minutes per game in the last two seasons. He's also playing less ES minutes and a lot less minutes overall. Four minutes less per game compared to last season.

 

[Aavco Cup]

I wouldn't say sheltered, but there is definitely something afoot between the coach and Trouba. He's no longer getting any PP time. He averaged two minutes per game in the last two seasons. He's also playing less ES minutes and a lot less minutes overall. Four minutes less per game compared to last season.

I think the decision to use 4 forwards is a philosophical one. They obviously think Buff and Myers are their best PP options. I believe Trouba would be the next in line if one of those are injured, ejected or in the box for 10 minutes.

 

[allan5oh]

I think the decision to use 4 forwards is a philosophical one. They obviously think Buff and Myers are their best PP options. I believe Trouba would be the next in line if one of those are injured, ejected or in the box for 10 minutes.

Probably, but Trouba is also getting less ES minutes to boot. Is that because of Stuart? Or is there something else going on? I'm really worried about Trouba losing his offensive instincts. His development curve is starting to mirror Bogosians, and that scares the **** out of me.

 

[Jeti]

I have watched Stu a bit this year. I don't know if he is playing better or not but I have noticed him making some very good plays in at least 3-4 games. He has been better than I expected. I had intended to bring it up after 1 game earlier. By the time I had the opportunity I had forgotten the details. I would like to have brought it up at the time in the GDT but I can't type and watch hockey at the same time. Besides I PVR the games so I can skip the commercials, Lawless and other junk so I am at least 1/2 hour behind the live play.

Stuart is relatively good defensively against the cycle. He has decent anticipation of plays coming from behind the net or from the corner, that say, Byfuglien doesn't have. Conversely, he's bad defending the rush or zone entry (the opposite of Byfuglien again, who absolutely excels at closing gaps and using his stick). He's often too aggressive standing up at the line and routinely turns 3-on-2's into 2-on-1's for Trouba to deal with. If he can cut down on that, he's a good bottom-pairing defenseman when paired with a good puck-mover, which he'll never be. The Claude Noel-era "chip everything off the glass to exit the zone" play is gradually leaving his repertoire, though Stuart has been the slowest to adapt to this - I'd say that's one of the biggest differences I notice in him this season.

I'm more worried about Myers. He's 25 and looking a lot worse than Trouba so far this season. Trouba can lead a pairing, Myers is showing he needs to be led IMO.

Agreed. I think Myers is all he'll ever be at this point. He could be a decent #2 if we had a good #1 LHD to carry him. With Enstrom, I'd say he's more of a decent #4, though I don't particularly like that pairing as they're too similar. They both play very passive defense, only Enstrom has much better positioning defensively.

 

[Romang67]

Probably, but Trouba is also getting less ES minutes to boot. Is that because of Stuart? Or is there something else going on? I'm really worried about Trouba losing his offensive instincts. His development curve is starting to mirror Bogosians, and that scares the **** out of me.

No. It's really not. If Trouba never improves offensively, which I think is unlikely considering how much he carries the puck up the ice, he's still much better than Bogosian defensively right now.

Bogosian was a puck carrying D-man who, for some insane reason, was being neutered into being a stay at home D-man in the traditional sense.

 

[allan5oh]

No. It's really not. If Trouba never improves offensively, which I think is unlikely considering how much he carries the puck up the ice, he's still much better than Bogosian defensively right now.

I knew someone would take it out of context. I was talking development curve overall. Monster first year, and no real development after that.

I noticed even last year Trouba seemed to have a leash around him. He was no longer allowed to rush with the puck. In his rookie year he was also a master at jumping into the offensive zone. We seemed to see a lot less of it last year. Even his physical play seemed a bit diminished.

For Trouba to take the next step, I think the leash needs to come off a bit.

 

[Romang67]

I knew someone would take it out of context. I was talking development curve overall. Monster first year, and no real development after that.

I noticed even last year Trouba seemed to have a leash around him. He was no longer allowed to rush with the puck. In his rookie year he was also a master at jumping into the offensive zone. We seemed to see a lot less of it last year. Even his physical play seemed a bit diminished.

For Trouba to take the next step, I think the leash needs to come off a bit.

But that's simply not true. Trouba was killing it from a possession standpoint last season. Considering zone starts, quality of competition and how he came out in the shot metrics, it's not a stretch to say that he was one of the best possession defenders in the entire game in his second year. And he did this while playing with Mark ****ing Stuart.

 

[Flair Hay]

33 and 57 are the ones "holding him back" from better offensive numbers. By playing ahead of him. Good chance Buff is gone after this year. Presto! There's Trouba's PP time.

 

[Romang67]

33 and 57 are the ones "holding him back" from better offensive numbers. By playing ahead of him. Good chance Buff is gone after this year. Presto! There's Trouba's PP time.

In less numbery talk, basically this. As soon as Buff is traded (or, God forbid, walks), Trouba will get another 2 minutes of PP time and be leaned on more offensively.

 

[Jet]

I think Jacob has struggled somewhat, partially with an increased level of competition, partially with the ****** partner he is with.

However, you see this A LOT with great young defensemen. They break into the league like gangbusters because they are so excited to be there and don't really know better. They are also set up to succeed with matchups etc.

Then they start refining their game and becoming more complete defensemen and their game dips a bit. I think that is what we are saying here. There are probably a couple of other minor factors, like losing Bogo and injury but I don't think those are playing a huge role right now.