Prospect Info: Jacob Bernard-Docker (D) 3 year ELC signed

DrEasy

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The problem I have is the idea I can't get out of my head that is: Geoff Sanderson is currently deciding that Jake MUST play with Hamonic.

I see no reason why the team couldn't play until the deadline with:

Chabot - JBD
Sanderson - Zub
Brannstrom - Hamonic
Holden

but we don't get to see Sanderson play significant time with anyone but Hamonic this year, at least it seems.
Honestly I don't mind it. Let the rookie be comfortable with a partner's habits and quirks. Now what I wouldn't mind is, when JBD is up, occasionally letting Zub play with Brannstrom and having Chabot with JBD. This way you restrict the Brannstrom - JBD pairing, which might be too green.
 

Sens of Anarchy

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Interestingly he did better on the road statistically where we have less control, I didn't catch the sabres game, how did his deployment differ?
more Dzone faceoff starts 8 CF% 24.14 vs Sabres ; 1 vs Wings CF% 66.7

Interestingly in that game when the Sabres had a 5 on 3 .. He was on the ice with Parker Kelly and ? Killing it off on the 2nd unit over the boards.

If they see him as a 7th at this point then I agree totally with sending him down vs hanging around but not playing much. His contract allows it and If I had a 1 game to win scenario and had to play him or Holden with Brannstrom, I'd play Holden

Note this is as of 23-01-03 and I do not expect that to last beyond this season maybe sooner. I put this Note in in case someone looks this post up a year from now and tries to treat it as something I thought would last forever.
 

Hale The Villain

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the pissing contest that resulted when Marc Methot suggested that JBD and Thomson may not become NHLers, is now a different debate.

Could it be that Marc was right? Ouch

Awful scouting to have spent two 1st round picks on JBD and Thomson.

Thomson can't think but has good tools, JBD can think but has bad tools. Neither have enough skill to make up for it.

Of course the Sens scouting staff, overconfident to the point of arrogance in their ability to identify underappreciated talent, reached heavily for both of them.
 

Beech

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Awful scouting to have spent two 1st round picks on JBD and Thomson.

Thomson can't think but has good tools, JBD can think but has bad tools. Neither have enough skill to make up for it.

Of course the Sens scouting staff, overconfident to the point of arrogance in their ability to identify underappreciated talent, reached heavily for both of them.
read on.

the Sens traded the 22th (K'Andre Miller) for the 26 and 2nd rounder...JBD and Tychonick.

Miller is at 22 minutes and is paired with Truba..NY second pair. Ouch. I mean f'ng ouch.
 

Hale The Villain

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read on.

the Sens traded the 22th (K'Andre Miller) for the 26 and 2nd rounder...JBD and Tychonick.

Miller is at 22 minutes and is paired with Truba..NY second pair. Ouch. I mean f'ng ouch.

And what I don't get is that Miller checks almost every box for what the Sens scouts are apparently looking for in defensemen now.

But why take the obvious pick when you can surprise everyone with yet another off the board selection no one was expecting.
 
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Sens of Anarchy

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And what I don't get is that Miller checks almost every box for what the Sens scouts are apparently looking for in defensemen now.

But why take the obvious pick when you can surprise everyone with yet another off the board selection no one was expecting.
2013 R4 Harpur
2014 R2 Englund R3 Gendron R7 Summers
2015 R1 Chabot R4 Wolanin R5 Jaros
2016 R5 Lajoie
2017 no D
2018 R1 JBD R2 Tyconick
2019 R1 Thomson R7 Guenette
2020 R1 Sanderson R2 Kleven
2021 R2 Roger R7 Romeo
2022 R2 Nordberg R3 Hamara R5 Donovan R6 Wallberg

That's quite a cold stretch for top 4 D. Story still early on some but.
 
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bert

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Awful scouting to have spent two 1st round picks on JBD and Thomson.

Thomson can't think but has good tools, JBD can think but has bad tools. Neither have enough skill to make up for it.

Of course the Sens scouting staff, overconfident to the point of arrogance in their ability to identify underappreciated talent, reached heavily for both of them.
The thing that stings most about JBD is they moved back in the draft and NYR took Keandre Miller with the pick. Which honestly I find very strange as this scouting staff tends to value physical gifts and raw ability over hockey sense. But this time they went the opposite way.
 
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Hale The Villain

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Since 2016 D drafting
2016 R5 Lajoie
2017 no D
2018 R1 JBD R2 Tyconick
2019 R1 Thomson R7 Guenette
2020 R1 Sanderson R2 Kleven
2021 R2 Roger R7 Romeo
2022 R2 Nordberg R3 Hamara R5 Donovan R6 Wallberg

Pretty clear from that list, especially looking at the more recent drafts, that there has been a clear emphasis put on big defensemen that can skate well.

And apparently it doesn't matter where they are ranked - we'll reach to get them.
 

Beech

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2013 R4 Harpur
2014 R2 Englund R3 Gendron R7 Summers
2015 R1 Chabot R4 Wolanin R5 Jaros
2016 R5 Lajoie
2017 no D
2018 R1 JBD R2 Tyconick
2019 R1 Thomson R7 Guenette
2020 R1 Sanderson R2 Kleven
2021 R2 Roger R7 Romeo
2022 R2 Nordberg R3 Hamara R5 Donovan R6 Wallberg

That's quite a cold stretch for top 4 D. Story still early on some but.
go back to 2002 and do this exercise. They have had ~ 4 top 4 d in 21 selections. And this with Codi Ceci as an "iffy" and 5 if you give Meszaros credit as a top 4 D.

So 21 years, 5 guys. Consider a career to be 12-13 years (from age 21 to 33)..yes, you can play longer, but at a lower skill level. That is 2 full cycles. It should have been 8, and possibly 10 if you account for potential injuries that may derail careers. They have 5.

It is why this rebuild may be stalled. It is why I have argued for 3 years on this site, their drafting..the myth of their success..is in reality poor. I am glad more and more people are seeing it.
 

ottawah

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2013 R4 Harpur
2014 R2 Englund R3 Gendron R7 Summers
2015 R1 Chabot R4 Wolanin R5 Jaros
2016 R5 Lajoie
2017 no D
2018 R1 JBD R2 Tyconick
2019 R1 Thomson R7 Guenette
2020 R1 Sanderson R2 Kleven
2021 R2 Roger R7 Romeo
2022 R2 Nordberg R3 Hamara R5 Donovan R6 Wallberg

That's quite a cold stretch for top 4 D. Story still early on some but.
Most of those are outside the top 15, which if you are hoping for top 4, just generally does not happen. We went ten years and spent 1 pick in the top 17 on D men, well thats what you are likely to get.

You go around the league, and most teams are short 1 or 2 top 4's, which more says that fans really tend to overestimate what a top 4 is. Looking at the players scattered around 128th in playing time, points etc, well it not what a lot of people expect in their top 4, but thats just reality.
 
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Beech

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Most of those are outside the top 15, which if you are hoping for top 4, just generally does not happen. We went ten years and spent 1 pick in the top 17 on D men, well thats what you are likely to get.

You go around the league, and most teams are short 1 or 2 top 4's, which more says that fans really tend to overestimate what a top 4 is. Looking at the players scattered around 128th in playing time, points etc, well it not what a lot of people expect in their top 4, but thats just reality.
at a career of 14 years, from 21-34 (while you can play longer, are you still that effective?) So 14 x 15 = 210 picks.
2 : 1 forwards to dmen ~ 70 d men chosen.

assume a 70% success rate ~ 50 quality dmen.

32 teams, average 3 quality dmen per team ~ 96 .

it still means about 46 must come from elsewhere. that should still mean ~1 dman per team from outside R1, top 15. If the Sens had achieved that, we would have no problems now.

so you are right..the bulk do come from the top 15, but man, you would expect the odd one. If you look at the Sens 07-20, nothing. Not one guy outside the top 15 (granted, grey zone with Chabot at 18).

if there wasn't an anti Russian sentiment in the USA. Is it possible Zub does not resign. He may have been traded out in another month. It would have left this team with 2 quality Dmen.
 

Sens of Anarchy

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Most of those are outside the top 15, which if you are hoping for top 4, just generally does not happen. We went ten years and spent 1 pick in the top 17 on D men, well thats what you are likely to get.

You go around the league, and most teams are short 1 or 2 top 4's, which more says that fans really tend to overestimate what a top 4 is. Looking at the players scattered around 128th in playing time, points etc, well it not what a lot of people expect in their top 4, but thats just reality.

A lot of top 4 D come from outside the 1st round

Slavin
Josi
Toews
Hronek
Letang
Montour
Andersson
Faulk
Gustafsson
Orlov
there are more...
 
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Micklebot

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A lot of top 4 D come from outside the 1st round

Slavin
Josi
Toews
Hronek
Letang
Montour
Andersson
Faulk
Gustafsson
Orlov
there are more...
Fox, forsling, Lindholm, Dunn, Gavrikon, Pesce, Petry, Ekholm, Zub, Peeke, Pelech, Weegar, Spurgeon, Marino, Klinburg…

Yep, and that’s just guys that are or were very clearly top 4
 

ottawah

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A lot of top 4 D come from outside the 1st round

Slavin
Josi
Toews
Hronek
Letang
Montour
Andersson
Faulk
Gustafsson
Orlov
there are more...

Yes a lot do, its the nature of the draft. But generally they come from top picks. I'd expect that 50-75% of the top 4 D men in the league come from the top 7% of picks (1-15).

11 of the current top 20 D men scorers are from draft positions 1-15. Another from the first round. 4 more from the second round. 3 from the third, one from the 5th. Take Tampa's cup teams. Top 3 D men drafted in the top 12.

Drafting is not an exact science, but if you do not spend high picks on D men, then you are just hoping something works out (i.e. Zub), but those are just too few to build a D around.
 

Big Muddy

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Speaking of JBD, he is a RFA next year. Any idea what kind of contract he'll get? I don't think I've heard anything.
 

cudi

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Speaking of JBD, he is a RFA next year. Any idea what kind of contract he'll get? I don't think I've heard anything.

he'll probably want short term so he can prove he's worth more than near league min, which is likely what he'll get. somewhere near a mil a season.

Thats what I would do at least. Some want the security tho.
 
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Big Muddy

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he'll probably want short term so he can prove he's worth more than near league min, which is likely what he'll get. somewhere near a mil a season.

Thats what I would do at least. Some want the security tho.

wouldn't be surprised if he got a 2 year 1st year 2 way , 2nd year 1 way something like Parker Kelly's
Is there some kind of rule that he'd need a 10% increase? It might be specific to a ELC or arbitration situation? I'm not sure, but recall seeing something like this somewhere.

IF (note the use of the word "if) its true, that would put him around $1 m.
 

Samsquanch

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We have two stars and a stud defender in our current top 4. Folks are overly critical.

No kidding.

Chabot was a bit of a reach at the time we took him. And Sanderson was a ballsy pick at #5 that looks genius right now. But the same people that say the Sens reached and failed on JBD and Thompson conveniently like to ignore this fact.
 

cudi

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No kidding.

Chabot was a bit of a reach at the time we took him. And Sanderson was a ballsy pick at #5 that looks genius right now. But the same people that say the Sens reached and failed on JBD and Thompson conveniently like to ignore this fact.

chabot was not in any way a reach.
 

cudi

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Mckenzie had him at like #25. Hence "a bit" of a reach - not a lot, but a bit.

thats fair.

Thomson was def considered more of a reach tho iirc. hopefully that one works out, but im not overly confident in the player.
 

Ouroboros

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Is there some kind of rule that he'd need a 10% increase? It might be specific to a ELC or arbitration situation? I'm not sure, but recall seeing something like this somewhere.

IF (note the use of the word "if) its true, that would put him around $1 m.
His QO has to be a 5% bump over his current base salary [832,500] so that's 874,125, but the Senators can make that a two-way QO because the player hasn't reached the games played threshold for a one-way QO.

Once the QO expires, the Senators can offer him a league minimum - or near league minimum - one-way deal.

He'll end up somewhere around 1 year, 800k.
 

cudi

Mojo So Dope
Feb 2, 2020
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His QO has to be a 5% bump over his current base salary [832,500] so that's 874,125, but the Senators can make that a two-way QO because the player hasn't reached the games played threshold for a one-way QO.

Once the QO expires, the Senators can offer him a league minimum - or near league minimum - one-way deal.

He'll end up somewhere around 1 year, 800k.

he will need waivers next year, right? I always get confused with the waiver rules.
 

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