Post-Game Talk: Isles 6, Pens 3

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I"ll keep an open mind, but I think I hate Kunitz with Sid even more than the idea of BB getting moved away from Malkin.

If BB is with Sutter, we still only have two legit top 6 guys in Perron and PH. And only one of them can create his own offense.

Well the reality is, it's either Kunitz or BB. Comeau, PH, and Perron are all going to be in the top six when healthy.

Kunitz always seems to find his way back to Crosby.

So unless Rosen is making things up and people believe MJ will demote Kunitz over BB, then the writing is on the wall unless BB lights it up with Malkin.

KIRK isn't really overreacting IMHO, based in what we know.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

What bothers me in that quote is the part where it says, "Bennett will COMPETE with Steve Downie for minutes with Sutter and Spaling."

I've felt this way for a long time now, but we have too many third liners still. IF JR decides to upgrade, one of Kunitz or Sutter needs to be part of the deal. At the very LEAST, Spaling should be in the deal.

Everybody here loves the idea of depth, of having someone like Spaling or Comeau or Downie on the fourth line. But this coach is not going to make the right lineup decisions. JR needs to intervene where Shero always failed.

If there is a teacher's pet (Sutter), JR needs to be rid of him. If there is a guy preventing our lineup from being ideal (Kunitz), JR needs to do something about it.

We've changed regimes, and a lot of things have changed this season (mostly for the positive), but veterans still get preferred over youth. Talent still gets stymied here. And certain players can still do no wrong in the coach's eyes. And others still can't catch a break.

It's frustrating.

 

[penguins2946*]

Yeah, it was pretty obvious by the Pens' usage of Kunitz after acquiring Perron that they intended on running with Kunitz-Crosby-Perron as the top line, which would make the 2nd and 3rd lines Comeau-Malkin-Hornqvist and Downie-Sutter-Bennett. Those lines really aren't that bad, and they're pretty good if Kunitz gets back to form.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Yeah, it was pretty obvious by the Pens' usage of Kunitz after acquiring Perron that they intended on running with Kunitz-Crosby-Perron as the top line, which would make the 2nd and 3rd lines Comeau-Malkin-Hornqvist and Downie-Sutter-Bennett. Those lines really aren't that bad, and they're pretty good if Kunitz gets back to form.

Spaling will be on the third line, and one of Bennett or Downie will be on the fourth.

That's how we roll.

IOW, know your role...

 

[penguins2946*]

Spaling will be on the third line, and one of Bennett or Downie will be on the fourth.

That's how we roll.

IOW, know your role...

I really can't see them putting Bennett on the 4th line, that's a pure Bylsma move. I could see them making a Spaling-Sutter-Bennett line, and that line wouldn't be bad at all IMO, but I'd rather see Downie-Sutter-Bennett. I'd be fine with:

Spaling-Sutter-Bennett
Whoever-Goc-Downie

 

[mpp9]

Well the reality is, it's either Kunitz or BB. Comeau, PH, and Perron are all going to be in the top six when healthy.

Kunitz always seems to find his way back to Crosby.

So unless Rosen is making things up and people believe MJ will demote Kunitz over BB, then the writing is on the wall unless BB lights it up with Malkin.

KIRK isn't really overreacting IMHO, based in what we know.

I think BB may find his way back to Sutter's line b/c it's a natural fit and we need at least three strong lines to compete with the best. Sutter being a complete nonfactor against the Isles on Friday was a sign that he's going to need more than competent linemates.

I don't agree though that Comeau's place in the top 6 is set in stone. I'd like to see him there over Kunitz b/c at least he has a pulse and has shown some clutch scoring ability, but I remember MJ loving Spaling-Goc-Comeau earlier in the season. If he comes back and isn't lighting things on fire, (which is very possible after a long layoff) I think he could be that physical 3rd or 4th liner we're lacking right now.

 

[wej20]

Problem is they don't seem to want to play Downie as a LWer and I definitely think Bennett looks more comfortable and effective on the right side.

 

[ProgOg]

Am I misremembering the line of Sutter with Spaling and Downie being very effective, too? I know they had their good games, but I don't really remember how long they stayed together and maybe stopped being effective.

 

[mpp9]

Spaling will be on the third line, and one of Bennett or Downie will be on the fourth.

That's how we roll.

IOW, know your role...

Healthy competition should apply to everyone, but yeah, unless BB is playing like garbage, he should never be playing lower than Sutter's line.

 

[penguins2946*]

Am I misremembering the line of Sutter with Spaling and Downie being very effective, too? I know they had their good games, but I don't really remember how long they stayed together and maybe stopped being effective.

They didn't stay together for long, but they were very effective.

The problem with the Pens strategy if they want to have Downie at LW is that they're loading up the right side and leaving the left side weak. The Pens would have Perron, Hornqvist, Bennett and Downie all on RW (arguably their 4 best wingers), and they'd have Kunitz, Comeau, Spaling, and someone else (does Adams play LW?) on LW. That right side is drastically better than the left.

 

[wej20]

Ideal situation is:

Perron - Crosby - Hornqvist
Trade - Malkin - Bennett
Kunitz - Sutter - Downie
Spaling - Goc - Comeau

Keeps everyone in their best positions.

 

[penguins2946*]

Ideal situation is:

Perron - Crosby - Hornqvist
Trade - Malkin - Bennett
Kunitz - Sutter - Downie
Spaling - Goc - Comeau

Keeps everyone in their best positions.

That is ideal, but we really have no way of getting cap space to do that trade to play with Malkin. Unless we're bringing in someone cheap on an ELC (which would probably cost DP), I really can't see us bringing in a top-6 forward. If we do anything, we'll likely trade for some cheap partner for either Scuderi or Ehrhoff and stand pat with our F group.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Ideal situation is:

Perron - Crosby - Hornqvist
Trade - Malkin - Bennett
Kunitz - Sutter - Downie
Spaling - Goc - Comeau

Keeps everyone in their best positions.

Ideally, one of Kunitz, Sutter or Spaling is dealt under your trade scenario.

 

[wej20]

That is ideal, but we really have no way of getting cap space to do that trade to play with Malkin. Unless we're bringing in someone cheap on an ELC (which would probably cost DP), I really can't see us bringing in a top-6 forward. If we do anything, we'll likely trade for some cheap partner for either Scuderi or Ehrhoff and stand pat with our F group.

This is true, to bring in another forward I guess someone like Spaling would have to be moved. Comeau makes the most sense to move to the LW IMO, he's mostly a shooter anyway.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Am I misremembering the line of Sutter with Spaling and Downie being very effective, too? I know they had their good games, but I don't really remember how long they stayed together and maybe stopped being effective.

Yeah. That was a pretty solid line. And a good mix of skillsets working together, as well.

Honestly if that linemate situation isn't "good" enough for Sutter, then I doubt little else this team could (or more accurately SHOULD) realistically do for him will be, either. Steve Downie and Nick Spaling are pretty damned good third line players in this league. If they aren't able to "elevate" Sutter's game to what is considered a satisfactory level... well... then maybe the team should drastically re-assess the personnel and strategy they are trying to build their third line around.

 

[mpp9]

Yeah. That was a pretty solid line. And a good mix of skillsets working together, as well.

Honestly if that linemate situation isn't "good" enough for Sutter, then I doubt little else this team could (or more accurately SHOULD) realistically do for him will be, either. Steve Downie and Nick Spaling are pretty damned good third liner players in this league. If they aren't able to "elevate" Sutter's game... well... then maybe the team should drastically re-assess the personnel and strategy they are trying to build their third line around.

I think Downie-Sutter-BB would have about the same impact as Cooke-Staal-TK. Sutter isn't a guy who will drive offense on his own. Neither are Spaling and Downie. As currently constructed, we have 4 guys on the team who do and they are Perron, BB, Sid and Geno. I'd like to see us add another and have the ability to move guys around without screwing one of our centers over.

 

[penguins2946*]

Yeah. That was a pretty solid line. And a good mix of skillsets working together, as well.

Honestly if that linemate situation isn't "good" enough for Sutter, then I doubt little else this team could (or more accurately SHOULD) realistically do for him will be, either. Steve Downie and Nick Spaling are pretty damned good third line players in this league. If they aren't able to "elevate" Sutter's game to what is considered a satisfactory level... well... then maybe the team should drastically re-assess the personnel and strategy they are trying to build their third line around.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I've grown really jaded towards Sutter this year. His production was supposed to be better since he was going to be playing with Downie and Bennett this year, and he has played with good wingers all season, and his production is only slightly better than last year (where he played with scrubs the entire season).

I was hopeful with his play in the playoffs last year and the start of this season. I thought he could turn over a new leaf and be a really consistent 2/3C when he started the season with 6 goals and 11 points in the first 18 games, most of which Bennett was hurt for. Then, he started playing even worse than he did last year and now we're here. He has 3 goals and 2 assists since that start (in 23 games), with only 3 goals and no points in his last 14. His production has been absolutely horrendous since his good start.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

I think Downie-Sutter-BB would have about the same impact as Cooke-Staal-TK. Sutter isn't a guy who will drive offense on his own. Neither are Spaling and Downie. As currently constructed, we have 4 guys on the team who do and they are Perron, BB, Sid and Geno. I'd like to see us add another and have the ability to move guys around without screwing one of our centers over.

I suppose you never know. but I just don't see it. You know very well that I was never the biggest Jordan fan but Staal>>>>>>>>Sutter. Staal was able to help his linemates out with his size, strength and hard work down low. He created all sorts of room for Cooke and TK. The guy was a hoss and actually used his frame and strength to his advantage consistently. He also had just as "good" (and unpredictable) of an offensive streak as Sutter on top of all that.

Sutter doesn't really help his linemates in any perceptible way I can see. He has to be carried around ES until once every seven games or whatever he wires a pretty one home. And in between he plays good positional defense and works well on the PK. But, to me, that doesn't make up for all of this... catering. Honestly I'm beginning to come around on the idea that it's not really worth having such a high maintence guy around as your third line's pivot. I'd way rather just have an older player who is more limited offensively but plays a much more straightforward and physical game and knows (and is content with) his role.

tl;dr -- Everyone wants three scoring lines. But I don't see any way Sutter can be the guy you build that dream around.

 

[wej20]

Cooke - Staal - Kennedy could cycle in the offensive zone against any line in the league. Spaling - Sutter - Downie is a good 3rd line but it can't do that.

 

[mpp9]

tl;dr -- Everyone wants three scoring lines. But I don't see any way Sutter can be the guy you build that dream around.

We got DP and Dumoulin on top of Sutter for Staal for a reason. He's not near the force at ES.

The way you roll 3 scoring lines is bringing in a winger for Malkin.

Perron-Sid-PH
Kunitz-Malkin-XXX
Downie-Sutter-BB
Spaling-Goc-Comeau

That's what I'd like to see. You know almost every winger in that group can move around as needed, but I like those combinations the best.

 

[KIRK]

We got DP and Dumoulin on top of Sutter for Staal for a reason. He's not near the force at ES.

The way you roll 3 scoring lines is bringing in a winger for Malkin.

Perron-Sid-PH
Kunitz-Malkin-XXX
Downie-Sutter-BB
Spaling-Goc-Comeau

That's what I'd like to see. You know almost every winger in that group can move around as needed, but I like those combinations the best.

Why not play Kunitz with Crosby and slide up Comeau in that scenario?

Or, is Kunitz okay for Malkin, just as long as he's nowhere near Crosby?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Sutter did all of his damage in the playoffs without BB help last season, if I recall correctly. The Pens also had a really nice third line without BB, when Spaling and Downie were playing with Sutter. Put Kunitz in there and the line probably gets even better.

 

[mpp9]

Why not play Kunitz with Crosby and slide up Comeau in that scenario?

Or, is Kunitz okay for Malkin, just as long as he's nowhere near Crosby?

I'm not sure where to put Kunitz, but I know the team is much better off if he's not going up against the opposition's best with Sid.

I've been harping on fixing Sid's line first and foremost all year. We haven't done that until Kunitz is pushed down the lineup. The pieces fall into place after that.

 

[KIRK]

I'm not sure where to put Kunitz, but I know the team is much better off if he's not going up against the opposition's best with Sid.

I've been harping on fixing Sid's line first and foremost all year. We haven't done that until Kunitz is pushed down the lineup. The pieces fall into place after that.

Trade him in for a horse, and then shoot the horse.

Sid should be centering Perron and Horny. JR should find a LW who would complement Malkin and Beau (look at what how duo has looked against EC playoff teams with Spaling)