Is this the year that the #1C/#1D rule of thumb is broken?

[Mrb1p]

I think the OP has the rule wrong. You need a 1C and 1D with the exception of if you're missing one, you need two of the other, and the one you're missing, you better have quality depth at that position.

For example, Anaheim when they had no 1C and instead had Pronger and Niedermayer, with MacDonald and a rookie future 1C Getzlaf.

McDonald was a a top 30 C when they won the cup, so it would still apply. They also had Getzlaf who played c/rw put up almost a ppg and never look back after that, plus Pahlsson who might have produced the best performance for a 3C the league ever saw.

 

[aufheben]

It's a dumb rule anyway. Johansen is an elite player now?

It's not a 'rule', it's a pattern.

You don't HAVE to do it to win, but the pattern suggests that it makes winning a whole lot easier and more sustainable.

What's the pattern? Having good players?

 

[JaegerDice]

It's not a 'rule', it's a pattern.

You don't HAVE to do it to win, but the pattern suggests that it makes winning a whole lot easier and more sustainable.

 

[Mrb1p]

It's a dumb rule anyway. Johansen is an elite player now?

What's the pattern? Having good players?

Pretty much, yes. But id say teams have had a easier time with meh wingers than with meh centers.

 

[Zen Arcade]

I saw thumb is broken and just assumed the Pens had another injury.

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

Johansen is ppg in playoffs while facing selke level opposition like Toews and Kesler. Even before that only 5 other centers had more assists this year than him. He bested elite playmakers like Crosby, Giroux, Thornton or Tavares. I find it hard to argue against those numbers.

 

[JaegerDice]

It's a dumb rule anyway. Johansen is an elite player now?

What's the pattern? Having good players?

Having great players in specific, key positions - the ones that play the most minutes and take on the toughest matchups.

The whole 1C/1D thing emerged as a counter or correction to the long-repeated, false idea that you needed elite goaltending to win a cup.

 

[ijuka]

It's a dumb rule anyway. Johansen is an elite player now?

I don't think that Johansen is an elite player. He's a 1C, sure, just like Bryan Little is a 1C. But not someone I'd consider an "elite 1C". Just like I wouldn't consider Hampus Lindholm an "elite 1D".

Really, this piece of conventional wisdom thing is way overblown, anyway. In NHL, most of the good forwards just happen to be centers, mostly due to the way NA has its best players playing as C.

Good players win cups. Usually teams that win have some of the best players in the world, and chances are that there's some for forwards as well as defensemen.

And really, Chicago already proved this false in 2015. Or 2013, if you prefer.

 

[lifeisruff]

McDonald was a a top 30 C when they won the cup, so it would still apply. They also had Getzlaf who played c/rw put up almost a ppg and never look back after that, plus Pahlsson who might have produced the best performance for a 3C the league ever saw.

If McDonald counts a top 30, then won't Turris? Certainly Johannson would.

 

[Legionnaire11]

The real thing you need is a 2003 draftee. Since the lockout:

Canes - Staal
Ducks - Getzlaf/Perry
Wings - Don't think Quincy or Howard suited up in the playoffs
Pens 2x - MAF
Hawks 3x - Seabrook/Crawford/Buff
Bruins - Bergeron
Kings 2x - Brown/Carter/Richards

Detroit is the only team to not have a 2003 draftee on its roster when winning the Cup since the lock out. Always found this to be interesting as it helps drive home how great that draft was.

Nashville is the team to buck this trend if they win. Only remaining team without a 2003 draftee, although I'm not sure if Carle is still on the roster.

Carle retired and we traded our 2003 in for a newer, faster model last summer!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On Johansen being elite. No he is not, but he's taken a huge step up in the playoffs and I think this experience might be the one thing to motivate him to play at a higher level on a more consistent basis in the regular season. If he ever makes that "Elite" level, he'd be borderline at best. But he's a solid #1C and has only gotten better since he arrived in Nashville.

 

[HandshakeLine]

What's the pattern? Having good players?

Shhhhhhhh, keep it under your hat, but I hear that's the way to win things!

 

[Hivemind]

It's a common argument for fans (and people on this board) to say that teams need both an elite #1 Centerman and Defensemen in order to win The Cup. In fact, you'd have to go back all the way to the 05-06 Hurricanes to find a team that did not have both.

2009 Penguins. Letang was not yet an elite #1 D and Gonchar had passed that phase in his career. It was one of the more balanced defense groups in the league, and played largely by committee and managed match-ups. Each of Scuderi, Orpik, Gill, and Letang played between 19:18-20:30 ATOI in the playoffs. Gonchar was at 23:03, but most of that difference was his time on PP1.

 

[JaegerDice]

Shhhhhhhh, keep it under your hat, but I hear that's the way to win things!

Overly reductive.

In a cap system, its near impossible to ice a roster of players so far above replacement level to term great, at every single position.

Sometimes, if teams go on a hot drafting run, they can get close, but pretty much zero teams draft consistently enough to sustain such a roster and when they do, parts inevitably get moved as a result of the growing price of success.

Thus, you want the great and elite players in the positions that have the greatest impact, by TOI, by QoC, by goal diff, etc.

Having the best damn bottom 6 or 3rd pair in the league means dick all. They may well be great players in their roles, but they are not the difference makers. Those bottom 6ers that go on hero runs in the playoffs do so via the opportunity provided by elite talent playing the oppositions elite talent to a draw or better.

 

[HandshakeLine]

I was being overly reductive? What tipped you off?

 

[Mrb1p]

2009 Penguins. Letang was not yet an elite #1 D and Gonchar had passed that phase in his career. It was one of the more balanced defense groups in the league, and played largely by committee and managed match-ups. Each of Scuderi, Orpik, Gill, and Letang played between 19:18-20:30 ATOI in the playoffs. Gonchar was at 23:03, but most of that difference was his time on PP1.

Gonchar pretty much had his best year in 08. He was still very much elite back then. Finished 4th in Norris voting back in 08.

 

[JaegerDice]

I was being overly reductive? What tipped you off?

You have an HFboards account. The ultimate tell.

 

[Mrb1p]

If McDonald counts a top 30, then won't Turris? Certainly Johannson would.

I think Macdonald is better than these two, but thats another "where do we draw the line" kind of thing.

McDonald finished in low thirties in scoring, Jojo in high 40s.

 

[ONO94]

i saw thumb is broken and just assumed that crosby slashed somebody else.

ftfy

 

[Hivemind]

Gonchar pretty much had his best year in 08. He was still very much elite back then. Finished 4th in Norris voting back in 08.

The Penguins didn't win the Cup in 2008. They did in 2009. In the pre-season before the start of their cup winning season, Gonchar suffered a shoulder injury, and missed 50+ games. He then suffered a torn MCL against the Caps in the second round of the playoffs (missing two games, and playing hobbled the rest of the playoffs). Gonchar was a tremendous defenseman, but he wasn't playing at 100% during the 2009 playoffs. Those injuries marked the beginning of a gradual descent for Gonchar.


Also, I would argue that he had some equally impressive (if not more so) seasons prior to 2008 (from 2000-2004 he finished 5th, 6th, 4th, and 4th in Norris voting). But that's not really relevant to this thread.

 

[sasha barkov]

Maybe if Johansen crys enough to the media, he'll become a #1!

 

[BlueDream]

I think every team is close enough... A #1 C that puts ~60 points you can win with.

Anaheim - Getzlaf, Lindholm
Nashville - Johansen, Subban/Josi
Ottawa - Turris, Karlsson
Pittsburgh - has 2 franchise centermen so that kinda makes up for it

 

[Spazkat]

The real thing you need is a 2003 draftee. Since the lockout:

Canes - Staal
Ducks - Getzlaf/Perry
Wings - Don't think Quincy or Howard suited up in the playoffs
Pens 2x - MAF
Hawks 3x - Seabrook/Crawford/Buff
Bruins - Bergeron
Kings 2x - Brown/Carter/Richards

Detroit is the only team to not have a 2003 draftee on its roster when winning the Cup since the lock out. Always found this to be interesting as it helps drive home how great that draft was.

Nashville is the team to buck this trend if they win. Only remaining team without a 2003 draftee, although I'm not sure if Carle is still on the roster.

ANA makes up for Nashville's lack of 2003 draftees by having 4 '03 1st rounders on the roster (Getz, Perry, Kesler and Eaves)

 

[Brownies]

The #1C/#1D thing is hard to dispute when as soon as a team win the cup, their #1 center and D climb up everyone's list. It's a real catch 22 to my eye.

 

[useless]

The two teams playing tonight don't have a #1c and #1d, so why not?

 

[TSA0402]

So is it a 1C, an elite 1C, franchise 1C?????

I'd say Turris is pretty close to a 1C.