Is the Two-Way Argument Silly?

[Ainec]

Why did you bring up centers when I just listed top 10 point finishes? I didn't specifically mention by position so...

you quoted my post on centers and elite...

 

[GreatGonzo]

Goals dont win hockey games.

Goal differential wins hockey games.

Whether your impact on your teams goal differential is purely production, purely suppression, or a combination of the two is irrelevant to the overall quality of a player. All that matters is the sum impact on goal differential that you consistently provide.

Crosby is/was the best player in the world because his overall impact on goal differential (or expected goal differential) is/was the highest. He did so primarily through offense, though he was never exactly terrible defensively... though he dud improve over his career.

Toews at his peak was a top 5 center, top 10 player because he had elite impact on goal differential. He did so with a balance of production and suppression. He was not as good as Crosby because over large samples he did not consistently impact goal differential with production and suppression to the same extent that Crosby did primarily through production. That's a testament to how good Crosby is at producing, not an indictment of 2-way play in general.

Now, there IS an arguement to be made that in the cap era, a player that can both produce and suppress against top competition has increased value, because you're paying one player to do two jobs with one cap hit, vs paying an elite scorer and a shutdown player and deploying them seperately. But thats a matter of cap value, not overall player quality.

TL;DR version:

No the 2-way arguement isnt silly.

Toews was never a top 5 player at his peak. That's just further media driven bias, cups, and intangibles talking. He was winning cups, being a Selke threat, and had his name and face carved out of gold all across Canada. He was never a top 5 player as a talent.

In his prime Toews absolutely was better than Crosby (at the time, who was maybe still dealing with some concussion issues and not a very good player without the puck). People are forgetting how good Toews was, he was like a better Bergeron. Crosby couldn't do **** for a number of years in the playoffs or in international competition. Toews outplayed Crosby on numerous occasions in high stakes games while given tougher assignments.

In general one-way offensive players aren't going to help you very much for half of the time they are on the ice (probably more if they can't get the puck back against a match-up line), so they are definitely inferior to good two-way players who can get the puck back and then go on the attack.

The only reason why Toews was ever seen better than Crosby is because he was winning cups while Crosby was dealing with concussion issues and missing games....notice how the tide turned the past few years? I wonder why....

Player to player, Toews is no where near Crosby. It's a ridiculous argument that is entirely media based that fans like you ate up blindly and consistently.

Toews doesn't have 3 cups without "one way offensive players" like Kane. You can't say they are inferior. Most of the best teams in recent years had Both a two way player and great offensive players.

Crosby has 3 cups now....and 2 smythes. He really isn't a "two-way player" but a high offensive talent with a solid defensive game....then you have guys like Kessel and Malkin as well...

 

[Thenameless]

In his prime Toews absolutely was better than Crosby (at the time, who was maybe still dealing with some concussion issues and not a very good player without the puck). People are forgetting how good Toews was, he was like a better Bergeron. Crosby couldn't do **** for a number of years in the playoffs or in international competition. Toews outplayed Crosby on numerous occasions in high stakes games while given tougher assignments.

It might just be mincing words but I don't think Toews was ever universally considered better than Crosby. Toews played better for a while.

At the start of their careers, Ovechkin was widely considered superior to Crosby, but once Crosby surpassed him I don't he ever really relinquished the title. There are seasons when other people win the Art Ross or Hart but I don't think Sedin, Kane, Benn, or Price were ever really considered to be better than Crosby. Like Toews, other players have played better for a while, but Crosby is still considered the best.

McDavid may change that soon.

 

[JaegerDice]

Toews was never a top 5 player at his peak. That's just further media driven bias, cups, and intangibles talking. He was winning cups, being a Selke threat, and had his name and face carved out of gold all across Canada. He was never a top 5 player as a talent.

Well I said top 5 center and top 10 player, but honestly, at his absolute peak, he was probably a top 5 player too. Where in the top 5 is up for debate, I don't really care whether he was listed at #2 or #5 or whatever. Lists are inherently subjective. If you disagree with them write a sternly worded letter to the author, don't come and whine on a message board about the grand media conspiracy to juice Jonathan Toews' reputation, which is what half of those threads hilariously descended into.

And yes, the 'tide has turned' of late, though that probably also has something to do with Toews playing significantly worse than he did at his peak, never mind Crosby finally finding the success that everybody just assumed he'd have back in 2009.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Kopitar not being elite is f***ing laughable.

 

[Ducks in a row]

you quoted my post on centers and elite...

What I quoted didn't list you saying elite offense for a center you just said elite offense.

 

[Ainec]

What I quoted didn't list you saying elite offense for a center you just said elite offense.

since when did we ever compare wingers to centers solely by production. There are less elite wingers than centers because center production >>>

 

[GreatGonzo]

Well I said top 5 center and top 10 player, but honestly, at his absolute peak, he was probably a top 5 player too. Where in the top 5 is up for debate, I don't really care whether he was listed at #2 or #5 or whatever. Lists are inherently subjective. If you disagree with them write a sternly worded letter to the author, don't come and whine on a message board about the grand conspiracy to juice Jonathan Toews' reputation, which is what have of those threads hilariously descended into.

He was arguably a top 5 center in 2 years: 2011 and 2013. I feel his peak was 2010-2013...but that's just my opinion. I just really don't see what qualifies him as a top 5 center during that span.

No one is whining, it's just a constant argument that is entirely media based. I mean go ahead and list the top goal differential players....but that one aspect of hockey doesn't automatically win you games or make you a better player. Im sure Kane doesn't have a great goal differential....yet he has been a huge part of 3 cup wins, along with better numbers and individual achievements.

 

[Ducks in a row]

since when did we ever compare wingers to centers solely by production. There are less elite wingers than centers because center production >>>

LW,C,RW and D are all positions that production matters a lot. When talking about someone being elite offensively it should mean everyone regardless of position unless specifically mentioned by position which wasn't said in what I quoted.

 

[Ainec]

LW,C,RW and D are all positions that production matters a lot. When talking about someone being elite offensively it should mean everyone regardless of position unless specifically mentioned by position.

not all production are equal

cmon you even mentioned D

a 50 point defensemen is an elite producer, a 65-80 point center that matches up and shuts down the top line of the other team IS an elite producer

 

[DitchMarner]

What the...?

Toews/Crosby discussions. What year is it?



Anyway, I wish some of the Leafs' forwards would play better "two-way" hockey right now. It certainly is important and good teams do need it.

 

[Ducks in a row]

not all production are equal

cmon you even mentioned D

a 50 point defensemen is an elite producer, a 65-80 point center that matches up and shuts down the top line of the other team IS an elite producer

All production is equal on the score board. Some positions its harder to get a top 10 finish such as a defenseman. Defenseman Karlsson and Burns have managed to be a top 10 point producer before something Barkov,Kopitar and Bergeron haven't managed to do. Barkov,Kopitar and Bergeron aren't elite offensive producers unless you are specifically talking about for a center which what I quoted didn't specifically say.

 

[Atas2000]

I'm pretty sure nobody ever said that.

I am pretty sure there was a claim Toews was the best player active. That would include Crosby obviously.

 

[Juxtaposer]

The two-way argument wouldn’t be silly if people could accurately evaluate defensive play. Alas, almost no one is good at it, and certainly no one on HF.

 

[Ainec]

The two-way argument wouldn’t be silly if people could accurately evaluate defensive play. Alas, almost no one is good at it, and certainly no one on HF.

Examples? This site uses advanced stats more than any other, this includes media and reddit. Selke forwards are fairly established now

 

[LeafFever]

You are young. The same thing was said when it was Messier vs Gretzky.

True story.

I am in my 40's. And since I am, I know not a single person mentioned "Overall" play in arguments about who is better-Gretzky or Lemieux. That never came up in those days. Lemieux may have been the player who attempted defensive play least of anyone I have ever seen and no one cared.

 

[LeveilleFan19]

This is always used to try to say an inferior player is better than someone else. If you look back, that is how the ridiculous Toews is better overall than Crosby started a few years back.
Offensive play is easily as important as defensive play. I get a little tired of seeing inferior players being named better "Overall" when they are not.

Give me the choice between 5 Gretzky's and 5 Orr's. I pick Orr every time for the mere fact he is hands down a better two-way player.....Greates PLAYER of all time.

 

[LeafFever]

If you go back to a few years ago the player ripped the most for defensive play was Phil Kessel. When he's not scoring, he's useless! He won't help you in the playoffs they said.
How bad was defensive play overrated if Toews, with his career high of 76 points was better overall than Crosby? Sid destroyed him offensively.

 

[Vipers31]

If you go back to a few years ago the player ripped the most for defensive play was Phil Kessel. When he's not scoring, he's useless! He won't help you in the playoffs they said.
How bad was defensive play overrated if Toews, with his career high of 76 points was better overall than Crosby? Sid destroyed him offensively.

So, you intend to keep basing your absurd thread premise on anecdotal evidence of minority opinions? The Penguins certainly didn't acquire Kessel because they needed another two-way player - they had been needing a high-scoring winger forever. The vast majority of people agreed he'd help them.

 

[Kismet]

So, you intend to keep basing your absurd thread premise on anecdotal evidence of minority opinions? The Penguins certainly didn't acquire Kessel because they needed another two-way player - they had been needing a high-scoring winger forever. The vast majority of people agreed he'd help them.

Anecdotal evidence of minority opinions...from a few years ago.

 

[SotasicA]

This is always used to try to say an inferior player is better than someone else.

So a guy who scores less points is automatically inferior? OK.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

In his prime Toews absolutely was better than Crosby (at the time, who was maybe still dealing with some concussion issues and not a very good player without the puck). People are forgetting how good Toews was, he was like a better Bergeron. Crosby couldn't do **** for a number of years in the playoffs or in international competition. Toews outplayed Crosby on numerous occasions in high stakes games while given tougher assignments.

In general one-way offensive players aren't going to help you very much for half of the time they are on the ice (probably more if they can't get the puck back against a match-up line), so they are definitely inferior to good two-way players who can get the puck back and then go on the attack.

He never was any of that. Toews has never even been the best player on his own team. Watch a Hawks game and see how Kane controls the play compared to Toews.

 

[socko]

As a Leaf fan, it is very easy for me to say that defensive play is not overrated. We have some horrible defensive players, that by the way aren't putting up a lot of offense either.

 

[JaegerDice]

He never was any of that. Toews has never even been the best player on his own team. Watch a Hawks game and see how Kane controls the play compared to Toews.

Kane was better than Toews in the last two seasons, yes. Toews was certainly better and more impactful through the height of the team's powers, 2010-2015. 2008 and 2009 they were roughly equal.

The only player that really has a case for being a better, more impactful player on the Blackhawks over 2008-2015 is Keith, though Keith was pretty bloody dreadful in 2011 and 2012 himself.

 

[snipes]

Does this mean we can close the Matthews vs McDavid thread?

McDavid is already set to pass Matthews in points, only two behind with three games in hand. So better PPG and analytics after a slow start.

Besides Matthews isn't even better defensively.