Is the Two-Way Argument Silly?

[Devil Dancer]

Toews. and please don't say that never happened here because I am shocked at the short memories of people here.

It was a tiny minority of posters. Most of HF has consistently viewed Crosby as much better than Toews overall.

Let's not start accepting the viewpoint of a couple of posters as the collective opinion of HF. I know, people do it all the time, but it's dumb.

 

[Ainec]

You should either pick a better example or go back to a thread from three years ago so you can argue into the void about something that's been bugging you since 2014.

This

OP please provide some examples otherwise this is pointless cause everyone seems to agree including yourself (although secretly I think it has something to do with Matthews and Nylander)

 

[LeafFever]

This

OP please provide some examples otherwise this is pointless cause everyone seems to agree including yourself (although secretly I think it has something to do with Matthews and Nylander)

Welk it was just admitted by someone else. And how can I get old threads since we can no longer find them with the switch over?

 

[Laineux]

Exactly, defence is equally as important as offense and shutting down other players is worth as much as their offense. This site basically ranks players based on their point totals, period.

 

[Vipers31]

Stop it. He was never as good as Crosby. It was embarrassing then as it is now.
And many on here said that (Toews better overall than Crosby).

It really wasn't that many. It was a kinda popular media pot-stirring narrative for a while. I'm pretty sure it was never a majority opinion on here, either.

 

[Ainec]

Welk it was just admitted by someone else. And how can I get old threads since we can no longer find them with the switch over?

What is the point though.. just admit you don't like the fact that HF does not rank the leafs forwards in the top 5 of every category given their defensive play

 

[LeafFever]

What is the point though.. just admit you don't like the fact that HF does not rank the leafs forwards in the top 5 of every category given their defensive play

Leaf players have nothing to do with this. I created this thread because of the Karlsson thread on here.
Matthews is elite and one of the best overall players in the NHl right now FYI.

 

[The Macho King]

It's somewhat overrated in forwards because their responsibilities are significantly lower than Dmen, but it's still a positive.

 

[Tripod]

That's how that started though. Better overall. Oh my god what a terrible argument that was.

You are young. The same thing was said when it was Messier vs Gretzky.

True story.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

For a few select players it has some merit. But IMO only the truly elite Defensive forwards should it be considered for, when comparing players.


Couple of examples IMO of how it works and doesn't work.

Gabe Landeskog is a good player and a solid two-way player. But he's not elite. Trying to say that his two way game makes him a better player then say Phil Kessel, just doesn't work at all IMO. Yes Gabe is the better two way player, but the gap between them simply isn't close to how much better Phil is as an offensive weapon.


On the flip side, Patrice Bergeron is a good offensive player and elite Defensive player. I think you could easily the argument that it is his Defensive ability that makes him a better Center then Ryan Johansen. Johansen is probably the more offensively gifted player, but the Defensive skill of Bergeron easily trumps the small advantage RyJo might have in offense.


Basically, outside of the truly elite Defensive players, the gap in skill between 95% of the league in terms of Defensive ability is not enough to say a player is better then someone else because of the two way play. It's not a significant factor.

 

[ColbyChaos]

Does this mean we can close the Matthews vs McDavid thread?

 

[Hint1k]

Offense is more important than defense. You can't make your defense indefinitely better. There is always a limit, cause you can't win with less than zero goals against. But you always can score one more goal. It is also much easier to destroy something than to create something. So the "two-way" and "elite defensively" are simply excuses for a lack of offense.

 

[xIronLore]

In his prime Toews absolutely was better than Crosby (at the time, who was maybe still dealing with some concussion issues and not a very good player without the puck). People are forgetting how good Toews was, he was like a better Bergeron. Crosby couldn't do **** for a number of years in the playoffs or in international competition. Toews outplayed Crosby on numerous occasions in high stakes games while given tougher assignments.

In general one-way offensive players aren't going to help you very much for half of the time they are on the ice (probably more if they can't get the puck back against a match-up line), so they are definitely inferior to good two-way players who can get the puck back and then go on the attack.

Toews had 76 points in his best season. Crosby had 66 that year... in 41 games.

Sid's bad concussion year: Toews had 57 points, Sid had 37 in 22 games. The only other very good year Toews had after that was a solid 68 points when Sid had 104. Toews' defense over Sid's defense doesnt make up for that. The two have never been close talent wise. And I like Toews.

Af for OP, the conversation about 2 way play doesnt need to be based around the best offensive forward.

 

[JaegerDice]

Goals dont win hockey games.

Goal differential wins hockey games.

Whether your impact on your teams goal differential is purely production, purely suppression, or a combination of the two is irrelevant to the overall quality of a player. All that matters is the sum impact on goal differential that you consistently provide.

Crosby is/was the best player in the world because his overall impact on goal differential (or expected goal differential) is/was the highest. He did so primarily through offense, though he was never exactly terrible defensively... though he dud improve over his career.

Toews at his peak was a top 5 center, top 10 player because he had elite impact on goal differential. He did so with a balance of production and suppression. He was not as good as Crosby because over large samples he did not consistently impact goal differential with production and suppression to the same extent that Crosby did primarily through production. That's a testament to how good Crosby is at producing, not an indictment of 2-way play in general.

Now, there IS an arguement to be made that in the cap era, a player that can both produce and suppress against top competition has increased value, because you're paying one player to do two jobs with one cap hit, vs paying an elite scorer and a shutdown player and deploying them seperately. But thats a matter of cap value, not overall player quality.

TL;DR version:

No the 2-way arguement isnt silly.

 

[authentic]

Offense is more important than defense. You can't make your defense indefinitely better. There is always a limit, cause you can't win with less than zero goals against. But you always can score one more goal. It is also much easier to destroy something than to create something. So the "two-way" and "elite defensively" are simply excuses for a lack of offense.

Not so sure about that one, depends who you're comparing I guess.

I would take a 90 point Selke level forward over a 100 point player who is average defensively. I would say an elite Selke caliber centerman easily prevents more than 10 goals a year than an average one, probably closer to 20 actually.

Defense generally is easier than offense, and also much harder to quantify, but not just anyone can become a super elite defensive player because that actually takes great hockey sense and anticipation like Lidstrom, Doughty, Fedorov, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Bergeron, Kopitar, etc.

There are guys who are responsible defensively, and those who work extremely hard at it, but some talk like that's all it takes. If that was the case a lot of horrible defensive teams wouldn't be horrible defensive teams.

I think a 76 point Toews is better than just about any forward up to 90 or so points, but in the case of Crosby 100+ is a little too much. I think Matthews could become like Toews was with an extra 20-30 points a season.

 

[Ducks in a row]

noone on HF said Toews was better but you had media saying it

Guys like Barkov, Bergeron, Kopitar produce elite offense and provide elite defensive play. By all metrics their defensive play is the reason they are ranked so highly (goal of the game is to outscore the opponent)

Barkov 0 top 10 point finishes.
Bergeron 0 top 10 point finishes.
Kopitar 0 top 10 point finishes.

I personally wouldn't call someone who hasn't even manage 1 season in the top 10 in points elite offense. People on hfboards throw out words like generational,elite and so on too easily.

 

[authentic]

Barkov 0 top 10 point finishes.
Bergeron 0 top 10 point finishes.
Kopitar 0 top 10 point finishes.

I personally wouldn't call someone who hasn't even manage 1 season in the top 10 in points elite offense. People on hfboards throw out words like generational,elite and so on too easily.

I would say Kopitar was elite. consistently was around 80 points for quite a while, the other two have not come close to that though. Kopitar has elite offensive skill IMO.

 

[Ducks in a row]

I would say Kopitar was elite. consistently was around 80 points for quite a while, the other two have not come close to that though. Kopitar has elite offensive skill IMO.

Kopitar no top 10 point seasons. He had good offensive seasons just not elite unless your definition for it isn't that strong.

 

[authentic]

Kopitar no top 10 point seasons. He had good offensive seasons just not elite unless your definition for it isn't that strong.

He's better offensively than his numbers show because of his attention to defense IMO.

 

[Ainec]

Barkov 0 top 10 point finishes.
Bergeron 0 top 10 point finishes.
Kopitar 0 top 10 point finishes.

I personally wouldn't call someone who hasn't even manage 1 season in the top 10 in points elite offense. People on hfboards throw out words like generational,elite and so on too easily.

point production since 2015 amongst centers

McDavid 1.18
Crosby 1.09
Malkin 1.08
Stamkos 1.0
Backstrom 1.0
Scheifele 0.98
Seguin 0.95
Getzlaf 0.91
Tavares 0.91
Matthews 0.91
Barkov 0.90
Kuznetsov
Draisaitl
Kopitar 0.83
Thornton
Eichel
Giroux
ROR
Carter
Bergeron 0.77

Bergeron Marchand Crosby are elite producers, did you watch the World Cup

 

[JaegerDice]

Kopitar no top 10 point seasons. He had good offensive seasons just not elite unless your definition for it isn't that strong.

Last season there were 590 forwards that played in the NHL.

Suggesting that a player has to be in the top 2% (or 1% if you want to include all skaters) to be considered 'elite' is a ridiculous standard.

Generational? Sure. Elite? No. Elite allows for a wider band than that.

 

[Ainec]

if elite is defined for McDavid/Crosby or 1.09 type production fine, but 10% is not a lot of separation when these guys are focused on two-way play

 

[Ducks in a row]

He's better offensively than his numbers show because of his attention to defense IMO.

That was used to say Toews was better offensively to try to make Toews look better in Toews vs. other players threads. Kopitar is good offensively but if he is elite he was he would of been able to manage at least 1 top 10 point finish. Datsyuk managed 3 top 10 point finishes while having a great defensive game so using attention to defense means nothing to me.

point production since 2015 amongst centers

McDavid 1.18
Crosby 1.09
Malkin 1.08
Stamkos 1.0
Backstrom 1.0
Scheifele 0.98
Seguin 0.95
Getzlaf 0.91
Tavares 0.91
Matthews 0.91
Barkov 0.90
Kuznetsov
Draisaitl
Kopitar 0.83
Thornton
Eichel
Giroux
ROR
Carter
Bergeron 0.77

Bergeron Marchand Crosby are elite producers, did you watch the World Cup

LW,C,RW and D all exist in the NHL don't know why talking just about C with those number.

Crosby has won multiple Art Ross and Marchand has managed a top 10 point season something Bergeron hasn't done. Why is a world cup being mentioned like it means anything? A short amount of games from World Cup isn't greater then NHL.

Last season there were 590 forwards that played in the NHL.

Suggesting that a player has to be in the top 2% (or 1% if you want to include all skaters) to be considered 'elite' is a ridiculous standard.

Generational? Sure. Elite? No. Elite allows for a wider band than that.

Depends on your definition. For me I don't call someone who hasn't even manage 1 single season reaching top 10 points elite offensively. I know some people would have stronger views on it then me like needing multiple such seasons.

 

[Ainec]

That was used to say Toews was better offensively to try to make Toews look better in Toews vs. other players threads. Kopitar is good offensively but if he is elite if he was he would of been able to manage at least 1 top 10 point finish. Datsyuk managed 3 top 10 point finishes while having a great defensive game so using attention to defense means nothing to me.



LW,C,RW and D all exist in the NHL don't know why talking just about C with those number.

Crosby has won multiple Art Ross and Marchand has managed a top 10 point season something Bergeron hasn't done. Why is a world cup being mentioned like it means anything?



Depends on your definition. For me I don't call someone who hasn't even manage 1 single season reaching top 10 points elite offensively. I know some people would have stronger views on it then me like needing multiple such seasons.

two-way thread and all the examples I've listed originally were centers. Why wouldn't it be centers when I haven't mentioned a single winger in this thread (other than the world cup line)

I assume you consider guys like Seguin and Getzlaf elite offensively, their ppg isn't far off from Barkov or Kopitar. If you want to say top 10 finishes than that's your arbitrary line

 

[Ducks in a row]

two-way thread and all the examples I've listed originally were centers. Why wouldn't it be centers when I haven't mentioned a single winger in this thread (other than the world cup line)

Why did you bring up centers when I just listed top 10 point finishes? I didn't specifically mention by position so...