Is the Two-Way Argument Silly?

[Rorschach]

Crosby's two-way play is underrated because his offensive play is such a high level.

 

[The Podium]

The Toews>Crosby argument was silly as Crosby himself was a very strong two-way player.

However I would take Bergeron, Kopitar, etc. over a Kessel (even at his offensive peak).

 

[authentic]

McDavid is already set to pass Matthews in points, only two behind with three games in hand. So better PPG and analytics after a slow start.

Besides Matthews isn't even better defensively.

I believe he is. McDavid is underrated there by a lot of people though. He's already as good defensively as Crosby IMO if not better.

 

[bert]

This is always used to try to say an inferior player is better than someone else. If you look back, that is how the ridiculous Toews is better overall than Crosby started a few years back.
Offensive play is easily as important as defensive play. I get a little tired of seeing inferior players being named better "Overall" when they are not.

Coming from a fan of a team that cant keep the puck out of the net i find this hilariously ironic. Two way play is certainly a thing and is not overated one iota.

I believe he is. McDavid is underrated there by a lot of people though. He's already as good defensively as Crosby IMO if not better.

good lord.

 

[authentic]

Coming from a fan of a team that cant keep the puck out of the net i find this hilariously ironic. Two way play is certainly a thing and is not overated one iota.



good lord.

How often do you watch McDavid and Matthews? Crosby is not exactly a Selke level player.

 

[Canucks1096]

It's just a way for people to pump up there Fav player but saying X player is better than Y player because of that.

I live in Vancouver. Some of my friends think Linden is better than Bure because Linden was a better 2 way guy. That argument is just so silly.

 

[authentic]

It's just a way for people to pump up there Fav player but saying X player is better than Y player because of that.

I live in Vancouver. Some of my friends think Linden is better than Bure because Linden was a better 2 way guy. That argument is just so silly.

Is that all it is?

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

It's just a way for people to pump up there Fav player but saying X player is better than Y player because of that.

I live in Vancouver. Some of my friends think Linden is better than Bure because Linden was a better 2 way guy. That argument is just so silly.

But that's the thing--this is only silly when people cite ridiculous examples.

When it usually comes up is when people are talking about guys like Toews, Kopitar, Bergeron--who usually fall in the 65-80 range--vs. guys who score in the 80-90 range. That makes it at the very least debateable.

When Kopitar scores 74 points and rings up a +34 which is far and away the highest on the team while putting up league-leading possession metrics while taking the hardest matchups and zone starts of any Kings C (and on a low-scoring team), you're damn right I'm going to take him over pretty much anyone else under 95 points, because he's destroying his matchups and turning that 95 point player into a third liner when they're head-to-head.

Edit: now on the defensive side, it's much harder. Guys like Doughty, Pietrangelo, Vlasic get underrated relative to their ability because they don't just dump out points and don't get recognition until they do.

Again, on this site in particular, defense from great players is vastly underrated. We're not talking about "lol Colin Fraser has three cups" here.

 

[SettlementRichie10]

But that's the thing--this is only silly when people cite ridiculous examples.

When it usually comes up is when people are talking about guys like Toews, Kopitar, Bergeron--who usually fall in the 65-80 range--vs. guys who score in the 80-90 range. That makes it at the very least debateable.

When Kopitar scores 74 points and rings up a +34 which is far and away the highest on the team while putting up league-leading possession metrics while taking the hardest matchups and zone starts of any Kings C (and on a low-scoring team), you're damn right I'm going to take him over pretty much anyone else under 95 points, because he's destroying his matchups and turning that 95 point player into a third liner when they're head-to-head.

Edit: now on the defensive side, it's much harder. Guys like Doughty, Pietrangelo get underrated relative to their ability because they don't just dump out points and don't get recognition until they do.

Again, on this site in particular, defense from great players is vastly underrated. We're not talking about "lol Colin Fraser has three cups" here.

This is what people don't get. Players like Bergeron, Kopitar, etc. turn those 90+ point players into third liners.

I would love to see some statistics on "elite" player production against the likes of those two centers in particular. Guaranteed it's not a 90+ point pace.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Wrong. It was said a lot, Particularly in 2014.

Member since: Feb 12, 2016

You sure about that?

 

[MacDonald4MVP]

This is always used to try to say an inferior player is better than someone else. If you look back, that is how the ridiculous Toews is better overall than Crosby started a few years back.
Offensive play is easily as important as defensive play. I get a little tired of seeing inferior players being named better "Overall" when they are not.

I would say most can't grasp two way play by defensemen, much less forwards. All those posts about selke level defence from RNH or Benn offer about as much insight as Morgan Rielly 1D threads.

 

[Romang67]

In the past 2 years, yes. But it use to be different. Apparently you don't recall or were not here.

I was. It was an extremely vocal minority of mainly Blackhawks fans claiming that. It wasn't a common opinion on here.

 

[LeafFever]

Member since: Feb 12, 2016

You sure about that?

Yes I am.

 

[Crazy Cizikas]

On February 21, 2017, Toewes had 3 goals and 2 assists. Crosby had 1 goal. If you consider that day to be Toewes’ peak and Crosby’s peak, yeah, Towes was better at his peak.

 

[snipes]

On February 21, 2017, Toewes had 3 goals and 2 assists. Crosby had 1 goal. If you consider that day to be Toewes’ peak and Crosby’s peak, yeah, Towes was better at his peak.

Wrong thread?

 

[Crazy Cizikas]

Wrong thread?

Probably. Lots of drink today.

 

[Monaakko]

There are two primary problems with evaluating defensive play, which is the cause for debates like the one in this thread. 1) Defense isn't broadly quantified. Yes, there are proxies, like shot differential metrics and the like, but they don't reflect the effect of individual actions as they relate to scoring chance prevention. If you could accurately determine how many goals a player prevents while on the ice it would be easy to determine the relative value of two-way play. 2) defence is, more so than offence, a team effort, so individual contributions are harder to determine. Still, I think the defensive play of top defensive forwards are worth about 10-20 points compared to high scoring players with average defence, although this is just a guess.

 

[daver]

There are two primary problems with evaluating defensive play, which is the cause for debates like the one in this thread. 1) Defense isn't broadly quantified. Yes, there are proxies, like shot differential metrics and the like, but they don't reflect the effect of individual actions as they relate to scoring chance prevention. If you could accurately determine how many goals a player prevents while on the ice it would be easy to determine the relative value of two-way play. 2) defence is, more so than offence, a team effort, so individual contributions are harder to determine. Still, I think the defensive play of top defensive forwards are worth about 10-20 points compared to high scoring players with average defence, although this is just a guess.

This presumes that the top defensive forwards are worth one goal against every four games when compared to an average forward. The difference between the top goalies and the average goalies is about one goal every two games. Given obvious difference in their roles on the ice, I don't think you can put anywhere near this type of value on a defensive forward. And if we are talking about the defense of an elite offensive forward like Crosby or McDavid, I don't think there is any value to be placed on defense in comparison to these guys.

 

[Elvs]

Ducks fan here to admit that Kopitar defenitely is (or at least has been) elite offensively. Don't be silly.

He has been nearly a PPG player several times in his career. And there's more to hockey than points, even when talking about offense. A prime Kopitar could take over a game like only few others could. Watch him go beast mode for Slovenia in Sotchi.

 

[Canucks1096]

This is what people don't get. Players like Bergeron, Kopitar, etc. turn those 90+ point players into third liners.

I would love to see some statistics on "elite" player production against the likes of those two centers in particular. Guaranteed it's not a 90+ point pace.

That's the problem with a lot of sports fans. They like to generalize, if they think something is true, it's true.

For me I always need some type of examples/facts.