Is the Soviet national team between 1978-1984 the best ever?

kmad

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When you dominate most of the opposition like they did you did not get much practice at what it takes to come from behind or when you are in a close dog fight.

I doubt that, the Soviets and the Czechs were close to being evenly matched until the mid-70s.

The Soviets were too rigid in adhering to their systems. They were ideologically constrained against allowing the kind of offensive creativity that might have helped them develop a successful end-game. They were devoted to having their hockey systems echo their communist economic systems. They couldn't let their style of play have any Western influence. It was a matter of pride.

It's not a coincidence that the dominant style of playing hockey today is a perfect hybrid of the Soviet team game and the Canadian individualist power game.
 

The Bad Guy*

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I doubt that, the Soviets and the Czechs were close to being evenly matched until the mid-70s.

The Soviets were too rigid in adhering to their systems. They were ideologically constrained against allowing the kind of offensive creativity that might have helped them develop a successful end-game. They were devoted to having their hockey systems echo their communist economic systems. They couldn't let their style of play have any Western influence. It was a matter of pride.

It's not a coincidence that the dominant style of playing hockey today is a perfect hybrid of the Soviet team game and the Canadian individualist power game.

I don't think the players playing for the Soviets in the 80's had much experience of coming from behind or many tight games, they came into the system of the Soviet senior teams after the mid 1970's.

They were used to winning, and winning big.
 

VMBM

And it didn't even bring me down
Sep 24, 2008
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I don't think it's really fair. Tikhonov straight up stole star players from other clubs to add to his Red Army squad, which was basically the national team in disguise.

Except that only about 50 % of the national team were CSKA players. And I say 'only' because of claims like yours.
 

kmad

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Except that only about 50 % of the national team were CSKA players. And I say 'only' because of claims like yours.

Under Tarasov it was about 50% Red Army and 50% another squad (I don't remember which one), but Tarasov was more reasonable with the appropriation of talent. Under Tikhonov it was closer to 100% Red Army. Not entirely 100%, but closer to it. And all of the best players were obviously Red Army. It's the reason Red Army won so many Soviet championships in a row. Tikhonov was the head of both the Red Army and the entire Soviet hockey program, so he was just robbing the smaller teams of their top guys, giving nothing in return. His end goal was to develop year round chemistry so they could dominate on the international stage. It worked, but this inconvenient truth serves to discredit the magnitude of their victories in my opinion.

Only since the fall of the Berlin wall and the allowance of NHL talent in the Olympics have we seen a completely level international playing field for all nations.
 

VMBM

And it didn't even bring me down
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Under Tikhonov it was closer to 100% Red Army. Not entirely 100%, but closer to it. And all of the best players were obviously Red Army.

Please show such Soviet team.

And I'm not (just) goading here; I'm genuinely interested. I've always felt that no version of the Red Army team had the depth of the full national team.
 

kmad

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Please show such Soviet team.

And I'm not (just) goading here; I'm genuinely interested. I've always felt that no version of the Red Army team had the depth of the full national team.

I honestly don't know where I can find this info online if it's not on HockeyDB. I'm going by what I've read in books.
 

VMBM

And it didn't even bring me down
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Lineups from the 1979 WHC and the 1981 Canada Cup (maybe the 2 best Soviet teams ever):

the 1979 World Championships (group game vs. Czechoslovakia)

Boris MIKHAILOV (CSKA) -Vladimir PETROV (CSKA) - Valery KHARLAMOV (CSKA)
Helmut BALDERIS (CSKA) - Viktor ZHLUKTOV (CSKA) - Sergey KAPUSTIN (CSKA)
Sergey MAKAROV (CSKA) -Vladimir GOLIKOV (Dynamo) - Alexander GOLIKOV (Dynamo)
Alexander SKVORTSOV (Gorky Torpedo) - Yury LEBEDEV (Krylya Sovetov) - Alexander YAKUSHEV (Spartak)

Gennady TSYGANKOV (CSKA) - Vladimir LUTCHENKO (CSKA)
Valery VASILIEV (Dynamo) - Sergey BABINOV (CSKA)
Zinetula BILYALETDINOV (Dynamo) - Vasily PERVUKHIN (Dynamo)

Vladislav TRETIAK (CSKA)

1981 Canada Cup (group game vs. Czechoslovakia)

Sergey MAKAROV (CSKA) - Igor LARIONOV (CSKA) - Vladimir KRUTOV (CSKA)
Victor SHALIMOV (Spartak) - Sergey SHEPELEV (Spartak) - Sergey KAPUSTIN (Spartak)
Alexander MALTSEV (Dynamo) - Vladimir GOLIKOV (Dynamo)- Nikolay DROZDETSKY (CSKA)
Alexander SKVORTSOV (Gorky Torpedo) - Viktor ZHLUKTOV (CSKA) - Andrey KHOMUTOV (CSKA)

Alexey KASATONOV (CSKA) - Vyacheslav FETISOV (CSKA)
Valery VASILIEV (Dynamo) - Sergey BABINOV (CSKA)
Zinetula BILYALETDINOV (Dynamo) - Vasily PERVUKHIN (Dynamo)

Vladislav TRETIAK (CSKA)

Both teams are a LOT closer to that 50-50 than 100 %. A clear majority of the best players were indeed from CSKA, but they still needed some depth from other clubs. Maybe it changed somewhat towards the late 1980s; CSKA seemed to get more and more superior all the time.
 
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Theokritos

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No doubt 50+% is without precedent among Team Canada and CSKA was stacked beyond NHL dynasty team level, but VMBM is right in pointing out that CSKA and the National Team were not one and the same, not even on the peak of Tikhonov's reign. The National Team clearly had superior depth.

Don't get me wrong, those old soviet teams were awesome, they just had a huge advantage going into every tournament over a team like Canada in chemistry and system.

Indeed, but as has been said before: This helps to explain why the Soviet teams were so awesome, I doesn't change anything about the fact that they were awesome. They are among the best teams ever in terms of on ice performance.
 

The Bad Guy*

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No doubt 50+% is without precedent among Team Canada and CSKA was stacked beyond NHL dynasty team level, but VMBM is right in pointing out that CSKA and the National Team were not one and the same, not even on the peak of Tikhonov's reign. The National Team clearly had superior depth.



Indeed, but as has been said before: This helps to explain why the Soviet teams were so awesome, I doesn't change anything about the fact that they were awesome. They are among the best teams ever in terms of on ice performance.

Yes, you are right, it does not change the fact that they were a great team.

I have been watching international hockey since the early 70's and I can say as a Canadian fan that no team has ever frightened me going into a game such as those teams did.

I look at them in three ways, how great THEY were, how great WE were to have been able to have beat them at times and how great WE COULD have been if we had built National teams in the same manner.
 

The Bad Guy*

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A couple traits of a GOAT team you'd think?

Actually, quite the opposite.

If suddenly they find themselves having to be in situations where they have to come from behind against a country(Canada) that just puts an all star team together in a couple of weeks it just shows the level of competition they were used to playing most of the time and that they were not quite as great as it looked.

They are definately in the ranks of greatest of all time teams but some all star Canadian team from some era is their superior if they played and trained as a team so much like those old Soviet teams, maybe even without using that system but certainly if using that system.

Talent trumps in that scenario and Canada has proven over time right to this day that they have the better talent depth.

Any talk of greatest team ever has to start and end with some Canadian squad, it has proven itself to be number 1 in world hockey.
 

canuck2010

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Dec 21, 2010
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I have a point at least.
I'm still waiting for yours.

The Challenge Cut in 1978-79 for me is the big barometer.
Games 2 and 3 were amazing. 6-0 against the best North America has to offer and game 2 maybe one of the great performances ever. We are talking Challenge and WCH dominance combined. In 1979 the best of Canada were outdueled 2 of 3

Since you asked. How can you attach any importance to these all star games in mid season. A better than average NHL club team would probably win 2 out of three from an NHL all star team thrown together in mid season. Hardly a barometer.

The WHC is a nice tourney but not really indicative of anything and never was. Do I need to go into all the reasons why?

So if beating the **** out of lame opposition or playing a stacked Red Army team against an NHL club (Red Army was a tremendous team and did form the core of the USSR national team) then so be it.

I would also point out once again that the USSR has only won 1 best on best tourney ever. None if you are of the persuasion that The Canada Cup was not best on best.
 

canuck2010

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Dec 21, 2010
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Yes, you are right, it does not change the fact that they were a great team.

I have been watching international hockey since the early 70's and I can say as a Canadian fan that no team has ever frightened me going into a game such as those teams did.

I look at them in three ways, how great THEY were, how great WE were to have been able to have beat them at times and how great WE COULD have been if we had built National teams in the same manner.

Agreed.
 

canuck2010

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In the 1983 World Championships the Soviets beat Canada twice with the score of 8-2.

In the 1984 Olympics the Soviets steamrolled over Sweden by the score of 10-1.

Is this the best hockey team ever assembled? I think it is, because not only was it pretty much unbeatable, but it was able to steamroll over other top teams in the world. The best NHL players were no match for the Soviets and neither were the other European teams.


In 1983 and 1984 Canada could only send players whose teams were out of the playoffs and only if they wanted to go. They could beat Canada 15-0 and it still proved nothing. Surely you don't consider that a true test.

In 1981 the best on best Canada Cup saw the two teams split one game a piece. Unfortunately the USSR won the one that really counted. Can 7 USSR 3 USSR 8 Can 1

I remember that Cup pretty well as one of my fav players (Gil Perreault) broke his ankle in one of the round robin games.
 

Mr Kanadensisk

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May 13, 2005
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Lineups from the 1979 WHC and the 1981 Canada Cup (maybe the 2 best Soviet teams ever):

Both teams are a LOT closer to that 50-50 than 100 %. A clear majority of the best players were indeed from CSKA, but they still needed some depth from other clubs. Maybe it changed somewhat towards the late 1980s; CSKA seemed to get more and more superior all the time.

Obviously in Soviet times the league and all the teams were ultimately controlled by the government and players could be moved by those in power to support their agenda. The plan was pretty simple, choose the ideal line combinations and defense pairings and then spread those lines over 2 or 3 clubs so they can keep sharp playing each other in-between international tournaments. Make sure those 2 or 3 clubs are all based out of the same city so that full national team practices can be held as easily and as often as they like. The Soviets effectively had a full time national team program and part of that was concentrating their best players over 2 or 3 Moscow based clubs.
 

jkrx

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Feb 4, 2010
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As unstoppable as the '77 Habs who went 72-10-12 combined through the reg season + playoffs?
The same team that stopped the Russians cold on New Years that would have been a complete blowout if not for Tretiak standing on his head?

And let's go through your checklist for the Russians...
Legendary coach...Bowman, check.
Played as a team in an airtight system...played an aggressive trap, check.
Had a great goalie...Dryden, check.

And the "League" the Russians supposedly were in their own was actually true because the parity of that League was an absolute joke, even by 1970s NHL expansion standards.

As for the comment whether Canada is the best...well yeah, we are!
Canada has more actual best on best tourney wins then everyone else combined thank you very much.

My grandson showed me this some days ago and I think it's spot on here.

xkRB3nS.jpg


Not that I think you hate anyone but still...
 

VMBM

And it didn't even bring me down
Sep 24, 2008
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The Challenge Cut in 1978-79 for me is the big barometer.
Games 2 and 3 were amazing. 6-0 against the best North America has to offer and game 2 maybe one of the great performances ever. We are talking Challenge and WCH dominance combined. In 1979 the best of Canada were outdueled 2 of 3

Exactly.

It is obvious that in the 1978-79 season, the Soviets were better than ever before; they had 4 strong forward lines, they were showing far superior defensive play, the veterans like Mikhailov and Petrov were still playing great (unlike the following season) and combined neatly with young players like Makarov, Golikov brothers etc. Everything seemed to click for them that season and even missing Maltsev and young Fetisov - as well as losing Kharlamov and V. Golikov to injury in the 1st and 2nd game of the Challenge Cup, respectively - did not seem to bother them much.

When you look at what happened in the 1979 Challenge Cup (watch the games, they are available on YouTube!) and what happened a couple of months later in the 1979 World Championships (11-1 and 6-1 over Czechoslovakia, 11-3 and 9-3 over Sweden, 9-2 and 5-2 over Canada etc.), it should be clear to everyone that this was one of the best teams ever - if not the best. Neither the Challenge Cup nor the 1979 WHC happened by accident.

Obviously in Soviet times the league and all the teams were ultimately controlled by the government and players could be moved by those in power to support their agenda. The plan was pretty simple, choose the ideal line combinations and defense pairings and then spread those lines over 2 or 3 clubs so they can keep sharp playing each other in-between international tournaments. Make sure those 2 or 3 clubs are all based out of the same city so that full national team practices can be held as easily and as often as they like. The Soviets effectively had a full time national team program and part of that was concentrating their best players over 2 or 3 Moscow based clubs.

Well, I was answering a post that claimed that nearly 100 % of the ntl team consisted of CSKA players (in the Tikhonov era), and, like Theokritos said, this thread is not really about the reasons why the 1978-84 Soviets were so good.

Of course it seems fairly obvious that the interests of the Soviet national team came before the interests of any club team and that the great non-CSKA players like Maltsev, Yakushev, Vasiliev etc. were always pretty 'available' and had some chemistry also with the Red Army guys.
 
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VMBM

And it didn't even bring me down
Sep 24, 2008
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Since you asked. How can you attach any importance to these all star games in mid season. A better than average NHL club team would probably win 2 out of three from an NHL all star team thrown together in mid season. Hardly a barometer.

So in September they're out of shape (e.g. 1972 Summit series), but the mid-season is no good either? What would've been the best time for these games then?

Cut the crap. The 1979 Challenge Cup wasn't an 'all-star game'. It was USSR vs. Canada in all but name (--> See if you can find Larry Robinson's interview during game 3). Of course it was far from perfect (it was NOT "the Series of the Century") and a little unfair to the Canadians, but blame Alan Eagleson for thinking that the 'NHL All-Stars' could still pull it through. Still, it is a little lame to totally dismiss the series years afterwards - especially since the games were good quality hockey.

Team NHL's lineup from game 2:
McDonald - Perreault - Sittler
Barber - Clarke - Gainey
Lafleur - Dionne - Shutt
Bossy - Trottier - Gillies

Robinson - Potvin
Savard - Beck
Salming

Dryden

It looks to me at least that it wasn't just 'bunch of all-stars thrown together'; i.e. you have Bossy-Trottier-Gillies, the defensive line Barber-Clarke-Gainey, as well as Lafleur-Shutt (Canadiens), McDonald-Sittler (Toronto)...
 

Cursed Lemon

Registered Bruiser
Nov 10, 2011
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I'm in the camp of "national all-star team of x-amount of years vs. one of 30 teams in a league".

You're going to tell me that those Soviet squads could've beaten the Canada Cup 1987 roster, all other things being equal?

No, I don't buy it. They may have been one of the most dominant forces to play out in the hockey world but they are definitely not the most talented team ever assembled.
 

kmad

riot survivor
Jun 16, 2003
34,133
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Vancouver
The Team Canada of late hasn´t got anything on the canadian teams of the 80´s for starters...

The defense and goaltending right now is 1000 times better than it was in the 80s. Nobody can touch Mario or Wayne but that's something to consider.
 

canuck2010

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Dec 21, 2010
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So in September they're out of shape (e.g. 1972 Summit series), but the mid-season is no good either? What would've been the best time for these games then?

Cut the crap. The 1979 Challenge Cup wasn't an 'all-star game'. It was USSR vs. Canada in all but name (--> See if you can find Larry Robinson's interview during game 3). Of course it was far from perfect (it was NOT "the Series of the Century") and a little unfair to the Canadians, but blame Alan Eagleson for thinking that the 'NHL All-Stars' could still pull it through. Still, it is a little lame to totally dismiss the series years afterwards - especially since the games were good quality hockey.

The '72 team was out of shape physically as well as out of hockey shape. They were in no way mentally prepared to play a team as good as the Soviets were. Aside from the fact that your buddy Mr. Eagleson who wanted the team named Team NHL ensured that his clients played while Bobby Hull, Gerry Cheevers, J.C Tremblay and Dave Keon were left at home. Remember that the man was a crook. Jacques Lapierrierre and Dallas Smith turned down invites and all taking part were promised at least one game. Bobby Orr of course was injured at the time unfortunately.

It wasn't the time of year that factored into the closeness of the series most of it had to do with attitude. The players themselves admitted that "we were in trouble" in the very 1st game before it got out of hand. They realized that the Russians were pretty good hockey players and were going to kick their ass.

In all honesty knowing all of this and I still believe that the Canadians would do no worse than win 7 of the 8. That means a real and prepared Team Canada. I know, I know you're going to say ******** Canadians. We'll never really know of course.

Sometimes these things happen for a reason, imagine how far back it would have put international hockey had Canada run away with the series. In a way we all won. :)
 

canuck2010

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Dec 21, 2010
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Cut the crap. The 1979 Challenge Cup wasn't an 'all-star game'. It was USSR vs. Canada in all but name (--> See if you can find Larry Robinson's interview during game 3). Of course it was far from perfect (it was NOT "the Series of the Century") and a little unfair to the Canadians, but blame Alan Eagleson for thinking that the 'NHL All-Stars' could still pull it through. Still, it is a little lame to totally dismiss the series years afterwards - especially since the games were good quality hockey.

No NHL player would want to lose any of those games nor would any Russian. As you say though it's a little unfair to play for your club team and 3 nights later play a well oiled Russian National team.

And you're right I shouldn't have said that I totally dismissed the series because to anybody with any hockey knowledge at all, could recognize the tremendous talent of that Soviet team. What I should have said was that the result wasn't really something you could hang your hat on. It was quite predictable really. I bet my father that you guys would win the series fairly easily.
 

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