Is the Soviet national team between 1978-1984 the best ever?

[Rhiessan71]

Im sure you can prove that Montreal was better. In the end this thread is all one big opinion.
You haven't even stated your stance but by your reaction you must feel Canada is the best. I would love to hear the argument to why the Russians were inferior?
In case you haven't read prior posts many support my opinion and others disagree but the answer will never be known.
No factual information. The Russians were unstoppable.

As unstoppable as the '77 Habs who went 72-10-12 combined through the reg season + playoffs?
The same team that stopped the Russians cold on New Years that would have been a complete blowout if not for Tretiak standing on his head?

And let's go through your checklist for the Russians...
Legendary coach...Bowman, check.
Played as a team in an airtight system...played an aggressive trap, check.
Had a great goalie...Dryden, check.

And the "League" the Russians supposedly were in their own was actually true because the parity of that League was an absolute joke, even by 1970s NHL expansion standards.

As for the comment whether Canada is the best...well yeah, we are!
Canada has more actual best on best tourney wins then everyone else combined thank you very much.

 

[Theokritos]

The thread title says it all and my answer is yes.

What you said is "The Russians were a better team than anything Montreal could throw at them". Not exactly fair to compare a club team with a national team.

 

[kmad]

I don't think it's really fair. Tikhonov straight up stole star players from other clubs to add to his Red Army squad, which was basically the national team in disguise.

For comparison, imagine the chemistry if the 2014 Canadian Olympic team played 11 months of the year together.

Of course that Russian team was amazing, but it had the unfair and almost impossible to combine advantages of being an all-star roster as well as having years and years of ingrained chemistry.

 

[Brooklanders*]

What you said is "The Russians were a better team than anything Montreal could throw at them". Not exactly fair to compare a club team with a national team.

Once again read what the thread says. Yes I agree that those teams are the best ever.

 

[Brooklanders*]

As unstoppable as the '77 Habs who went 72-10-12 combined through the reg season + playoffs?
The same team that stopped the Russians cold on New Years that would have been a complete blowout if not for Tretiak standing on his head?

And let's go through your checklist for the Russians...
Legendary coach...Bowman, check.
Played as a team in an airtight system...played an aggressive trap, check.
Had a great goalie...Dryden, check.

And the "League" the Russians supposedly were in their own was actually true because the parity of that League was an absolute joke, even by 1970s NHL expansion standards.

As for the comment whether Canada is the best...well yeah, we are!
Canada has more actual best on best tourney wins then everyone else combined thank you very much.

It certainly sounds like you are blinded by national pride. Parity?
Montreal were a team of All Stars during those years. The NHL balance of power did not exist. Those were times when Dynasties were a reality. It can be argued that Montreal's greatest team wasn't even from this era. Many suggest 1977 with 9 Hall of Famers but like anything that is debwtable. This entire forum is a matter of opinion. By 1984 the NY Islanders were winning a fourth Stanley Cup.
I'm not sure what Montreal team you feel was better than what the Soviets had to offer but I could only imagine we are speaking of a 1-4 year window anyways.
The 1976 Canada team was pretty successful and many consider Montreal in 1977 as the greatest "NHL" team of all time. No one talks about them as greatest team ever assembled. Sure Canada won the Canada Cup in 1976 but weren't dominate. They lost to the Czechs on shutout and squeaked by Russia.
On the other 1979 Soviet team rolled over its competition and by most accounts are considered the greatest hockey team ever.
An impressive 21-1-1 record unmatched in any international competition. These numbers are astounding and unprecedented.
This was against NHL competition 9-0. Teams that featured NHL all stars.
Canada did not reach those accomplishments in 1976. I'm strictly talking about 1979-1981. Those teams were unstoppable. Montreal nor Canada could match. I have 1977 Canadiens ranked around three or four but 1976 Team Canada is still ahead of them IMO. Even in 1987 with Lemiuex and Gretzky I wonder if Montreal's 1977 squad is better.The Challenge Cut in 1978-79 for me is the big barometer.
Games 2 and 3 were amazing. 6-0 against the best North America has to offer and game 2 maybe one of the great performances ever. We are talking Challenge and WCH dominance combined. In 1979 the best of Canada were outdueled 2 of 3.

 

[Sentinel]

It certainly sounds like you are blinded by national pride. Parity?
Montreal were a team of All Stars during those years. The NHL balance of power did not exist. Those were times when Dynasties were a reality. It can be argued that Montreal's greatest team wasn't even from this era. Many suggest 1977 with 9 Hall of Famers but like anything that is debwtable. This entire forum is a matter of opinion. By 1984 the NY Islanders were winning a fourth Stanley Cup.
I'm not sure what Montreal team you feel was better than what the Soviets had to offer but I could only imagine we are speaking of a 1-4 year window anyways.
The 1976 Canada team was pretty successful and many consider Montreal in 1977 as the greatest "NHL" team of all time. No one talks about them as greatest team ever assembled. Sure Canada won the Canada Cup in 1976 but weren't dominate. They lost to the Czechs on shutout and squeaked by Russia.
On the other 1979 Soviet team rolled over its competition and by most accounts are considered the greatest hockey team ever.
An impressive 21-1-1 record unmatched in any international competition. These numbers are astounding and unprecedented.
This was against NHL competition 9-0. Teams that featured NHL all stars.
Canada did not reach those accomplishments in 1976. I'm strictly talking about 1979-1981. Those teams were unstoppable. Montreal nor Canada could match. I have 1977 Canadiens ranked around three or four but 1976 Team Canada is still ahead of them IMO. Even in 1987 with Lemiuex and Gretzky I wonder if Montreal's 1977 squad is better.The Challenge Cut in 1978-79 for me is the big barometer.
Games 2 and 3 were amazing. 6-0 against the best North America has to offer and game 2 maybe one of the great performances ever. We are talking Challenge and WCH dominance combined. In 1979 the best of Canada were outdueled 2 of 3.

As much as I am a fan of Soviet hockey, this is a crock of BS. Virtually every sentence here is either false or irrelevant. And the Challenge Cup is not really a barometer of anything. You throw together a bunch of stars, some of them not even Canadian, and play them against a team with nearly a decade of familiarity. What did NHL stars have to play for? NHL?

OTOH some of the pro-Canada arguments are silly. 1976 USSR was far from optimal and still gave Orr-led Canada fits. 79 Canadians barely squeaked by Bruins. 81 Gretzky-led Canada was crushed.

Was that era Soviet team the greatest ever? There's no way of knowing.

 

[WakeUpNHL]

During 1978-1984 Soviet Union was pretty much unbeatable excluding the 1980 Olympics. It won the World Championships of 1978, 1979, 1981, 1982 and 1983 as well as the Olympic games of 1984.

The Soviets beat the NHL competition in 1979 Challenge Cup and 1981 Canada Cup with convincing victories, beating the NHL All Stars 6-0 in the final game in 1979 and crushing team Canada 8-1 in 1981 final game. As a sidenote it should be mentioned that after the Canada Cup final the officiating policy would be changed and Canadian referees would later officiate Canada's games. The 1981 final was officiated by a Swedish referee.

The Soviet were dominant in the World Championships during this period. In 1979 the Soviets won Sweden by the scores of 9-3 and 11-3, won Canada by the scores of 5-2 and 9-2 and won Czechoslovakia by the scores of 11-1 and 6-1. The Soviet performance in the 1979 World Championships is still the most dominating performance in the history of this tournament.

In the 1981 World Championships the Soviets beat Sweden in the decisive Gold-medal game by the score of 13-1. This is the most lopsided victory between two top teams in modern hockey. The Soviets also beat Canada 8-2 and Czechoslovakia 8-3 in this tournament.

In the 1983 World Championships the Soviets beat Canada twice with the score of 8-2.

In the 1984 Olympics the Soviets steamrolled over Sweden by the score of 10-1.

Is this the best hockey team ever assembled? I think it is, because not only was it pretty much unbeatable, but it was able to steamroll over other top teams in the world. The best NHL players were no match for the Soviets and neither were the other European teams.

This statement is laughable. The Russian team was an all star team that played together all the time.. the NHL star teams were superior in talent and on even terms would have beat the Russians 85% of the time in my opinion.

Even teams like the Montreal Canadiens, of that era, could beat the Russian team more often than lose to them.

SO.. NO that Russian team was good but not the best ever.

 

[The Bad Guy*]

Those Soviet teams were indeed amazing.

However, history has shown just how important having an all star team together for such long periods of time made such a big difference relative to the competition.

The minute those advantages were taken away for Russian teams after the fall of the Soviet Union the dominance immediately dropped away and has never come back, hell, Russia has not even had what one would call good success on the best on best level since the big red machine system has been gone, the difference was immediate. Sure, we all know that funding went away and the whole country was in a shambles for quite some time after the political fall of the old U.S.S.S so the hockey program at all levels took a beating but it has been a long time now since those days and Russia has been back to creating the same level of talent those old Soviet teams had for some time now and what do they have to show for it? very little.

Some room can be made for the fact that there is more parity these days but we all have to accept the fact that it was the system and not so much the talent involved that made all the difference for the soviet teams in those days, it was THE edge and tat edge was clearly huge. Now that Russian teams have to build teams for best on best events in the same manner as Canada did back then the luster of those old Soviet teams has come down to earth quite a bit. These days they can't even medal on home ice or in successive events of best on best events which simply would not happen if they could take all their talent and have them play together as a unit like the old Soviet teams. It is not difficult to see what a big advantage those old Soviet teams had, denying it is downright silly.

The fact that nothing has changed for Canada in terms of staying at the top of the heap shows just how much better they would have been in those days had they been playing in the type of system the Soviets were.

The Soviets had great teams but with what we now know any talk of a best ever team has got to start and end with some Canadian squad.

I don't know where those old soviet teams rank but to put them at number one with what we now know is a real stretch.Any Canadian all star team that would have been put together and trained together like those old soviet teams during the glory years would have easily been their equal and most likely better since the talent of the two countries has shown not to be equal, Canada of course having the edge in talent.

 

[MTLAzzurri]

I agree, the 1978-1984 Soviet team is the greatest of all time. No other team stood a chance against them.

 

[Thesensation19*]

It is pretty dam amazing to think 1 man in the 50s started from scratch and built not only a dynasty but a complete hockey federation that is now one of the best in the world and has more accomplishments than any other team I can think of.

The Russians were Bandy players. Ice Hockey was hardly a thing in Russia. He studied the NHL game and innovated it. Groups of athletic and scientific minds revamping their entire athletic program. Changing our game forever. In less than 20 years they were defeating Canada, NHL's best and doing much much more than anyone could ever imagine.

Theres always BS opinions on the matter but the truth is that the Soviets were in elite company. One game of 3-3 vs Montreal means nothing... One year of Montreal dominating the NHL means nothing. Were talking several gold medals and a whole decade of dominance against NHL teams.

They came over and NO one gave them a shot. The team, the individuals. They were said to not be comparable to Canada.

Now we use their systems, their style, their tactics, their programming and strength and conditioning tools. Ridiculous.

 

[Brooklanders*]

As much as I am a fan of Soviet hockey, this is a crock of BS. Virtually every sentence here is either false or irrelevant. And the Challenge Cup is not really a barometer of anything. You throw together a bunch of stars, some of them not even Canadian, and play them against a team with nearly a decade of familiarity. What did NHL stars have to play for? NHL?

OTOH some of the pro-Canada arguments are silly. 1976 USSR was far from optimal and still gave Orr-led Canada fits. 79 Canadians barely squeaked by Bruins. 81 Gretzky-led Canada was crushed.

Was that era Soviet team the greatest ever? There's no way of knowing.

If you read my previous posts you will see that I said the entire thread is a matter of opinion. Even my current post says it. I've taken a stance.
What's your point?

 

[Rumcajs]

The thread title says it all and my answer is yes.
I'm not Canadian or Russian.
The Soviet National Team from 1978-1984 are the best ever.

If Canada plays like they did in 2018 like they did in 2014 the story could change.

 

[Kirikanoir]

I don`t pretend to be any kind of expert on Russian hockey but no I don`t believe the Soviet national team between 1978-1984 was the best team ever.

The 70s dynasty Montreal teams, or the equally as good powerhouse 80s NY Islanders team beats them in any 7 games series. That`s no knock on the Russian team since they are comparable to some of the best teams the NHL has ever had to offer.

The only way the Soviets win is in a short (best 2 of 3 ) series. In a long 7 game series with something meaningful on the line like say the Stanley Cup, and the those NHL teams come out on top 100% of the time.

Again that`s not a knock on the Soviets, it`s simply the way NHL teams are built, playing long regular seasons, and long grueling playoff series.

 

[Uncle Rotter]

Sure Canada won the Canada Cup in 1976 but weren't dominate. They lost to the Czechs on shutout and squeaked by Russia.

They also beat the Czechoslovaks 6-0

 

[kmad]

I don`t pretend to be any kind of expert on Russian hockey but no I don`t believe the Soviet national team between 1978-1984 was the best team ever.

The 70s dynasty Montreal teams, or the equally as good powerhouse 80s NY Islanders team beats them in any 7 games series. That`s no knock on the Russian team since they are comparable to some of the best teams the NHL has ever had to offer.

The only way the Soviets win is in a short (best 2 of 3 ) series. In a long 7 game series with something meaningful on the line like say the Stanley Cup, and the those NHL teams come out on top 100% of the time.

Again that`s not a knock on the Soviets, it`s simply the way NHL teams are built, playing long regular seasons, and long grueling playoff series.

Yep, most historians (and Soviets and Canadians of the time alike) will tell you that Canada's strength was their heart and their character, something lacking in the Soviet cold-blooded systematic approach. Two of the biggest losses in Soviet history were the result of last minute Canadian heroics that the Soviets could never seem to figure out.

Give the NHL clubs something to pour their blood and sweat into, put something on the line, and they will win a series.

 

[canuck2010]

It certainly sounds like you are blinded by national pride. Parity?
Montreal were a team of All Stars during those years. The NHL balance of power did not exist. Those were times when Dynasties were a reality. It can be argued that Montreal's greatest team wasn't even from this era. Many suggest 1977 with 9 Hall of Famers but like anything that is debwtable. This entire forum is a matter of opinion. By 1984 the NY Islanders were winning a fourth Stanley Cup.
I'm not sure what Montreal team you feel was better than what the Soviets had to offer but I could only imagine we are speaking of a 1-4 year window anyways.
The 1976 Canada team was pretty successful and many consider Montreal in 1977 as the greatest "NHL" team of all time. No one talks about them as greatest team ever assembled. Sure Canada won the Canada Cup in 1976 but weren't dominate. They lost to the Czechs on shutout and squeaked by Russia.
On the other 1979 Soviet team rolled over its competition and by most accounts are considered the greatest hockey team ever.
An impressive 21-1-1 record unmatched in any international competition. These numbers are astounding and unprecedented.
This was against NHL competition 9-0. Teams that featured NHL all stars.
Canada did not reach those accomplishments in 1976. I'm strictly talking about 1979-1981. Those teams were unstoppable. Montreal nor Canada could match. I have 1977 Canadiens ranked around three or four but 1976 Team Canada is still ahead of them IMO. Even in 1987 with Lemiuex and Gretzky I wonder if Montreal's 1977 squad is better.The Challenge Cut in 1978-79 for me is the big barometer.
Games 2 and 3 were amazing. 6-0 against the best North America has to offer and game 2 maybe one of the great performances ever. We are talking Challenge and WCH dominance combined. In 1979 the best of Canada were outdueled 2 of 3.

Not buying what you are selling. Using some pretty sketchy logic to make your point.

 

[Brooklanders*]

Not buying what you are selling. Using some pretty sketchy logic to make your point.

I have a point at least.
I'm still waiting for yours.

 

[Hammer Time]

Yep, most historians (and Soviets and Canadians of the time alike) will tell you that Canada's strength was their heart and their character, something lacking in the Soviet cold-blooded systematic approach. Two of the biggest losses in Soviet history were the result of last minute Canadian heroics that the Soviets could never seem to figure out.

Give the NHL clubs something to pour their blood and sweat into, put something on the line, and they will win a series.

The "Canada has character/always comes through in the clutch" argument seems to be little more than nationalist chest-pumping to me. The Soviet Union had their own tales of heart and resilience:

- Game 5 of the Summit Series (coming back from three goals down after 40)
- 1976 Olympic final (CSSR was up 2-0 early in the game, and had a 5-on-3 for a full minute. The Soviets killed the penalty, and then came back to win 4-3, with Yakushev and Kharlamov getting the tying and winning goals 1 minute apart late in the third period)
- 1979 Challenge Cup (the Soviets were down 4-2 to Team NHL in the second game facing elimination, and came back to win in overtime, then the 6-0 massacre in Game 3)
- 1987 IIHF WC, deciding game (trailing CSSR 1-0, and then the KLM line beat Hasek twice in the third period to win the World Championship)

 

[Pominville Knows]

I have a point at least.
I'm still waiting for yours.

He's right you know and there's a figurative likeness i can tell you about it. My wife acted just the same while in labor.

 

[Up the Irons]

it was one helluva team, and I'm glad the question is asked. the best ever? hard to say, but they definitely deserve to be in the conversation.

 

[Sentinel]

Some room can be made for the fact that there is more parity these days but we all have to accept the fact that it was the system and not so much the talent involved that made all the difference for the soviet teams in those days, it was THE edge and tat edge was clearly huge. Now that Russian teams have to build teams for best on best events in the same manner as Canada did back then the luster of those old Soviet teams has come down to earth quite a bit. These days they can't even medal on home ice or in successive events of best on best events which simply would not happen if they could take all their talent and have them play together as a unit like the old Soviet teams. It is not difficult to see what a big advantage those old Soviet teams had, denying it is downright silly.

It can be argued that the subpar coaching, not the lack of talent or the system, is responsible for Russia's dismal output in the post-Soviet years. Krikunov and Bilyaletdinov were simply not up to scratch, and star-sick Bykov dug his own grave.

 

[kmad]

The "Canada has character/always comes through in the clutch" argument seems to be little more than nationalist chest-pumping to me.

Tikhonov and Tarasov have both echoed what I've said, I wouldn't chalk it up to nationalist chest pumping. The Soviet system by nature completely lacked an end game. It's not much of a secret.

 

[The Bad Guy*]

Tikhonov and Tarasov have both echoed what I've said, I wouldn't chalk it up to nationalist chest pumping. The Soviet system by nature completely lacked an end game. It's not much of a secret.

When you dominate most of the opposition like they did you did not get much practice at what it takes to come from behind or when you are in a close dog fight.

 

[Flair Hay]

When you dominate most of the opposition like they did you did not get much practice at what it takes to come from behind or when you are in a close dog fight.

A couple traits of a GOAT team you'd think?

 

[The Bad Guy*]

It can be argued that the subpar coaching, not the lack of talent or the system, is responsible for Russia's dismal output in the post-Soviet years. Krikunov and Bilyaletdinov were simply not up to scratch, and star-sick Bykov dug his own grave.

I'm sure it hasn't helped but i do not think it is the main reason.

Russia seems to still do just fine at lesser tournaments where they tend to have more talent and big stars on hand then the other countries such as the WHC.Those same coaches that do not seem to be able to get even a medal at the olympics do just fine at the WHC.

When the big tournaments happen where every country has their top players they seem to have problems, problems that I am sure would not be as big if they were still running an old soviet style national team for most of the year while countries like Canada and the rest would have to bring all their players and come together in a week.

The old system gave them a huge edge on the competition in those days and it shows. We cannot deny that as fans any longer.

Don't get me wrong, those old soviet teams were awesome, they just had a huge advantage going into every tournament over a team like Canada in chemistry and system.

Take it away, and Russia really came down to earth immediately.The correlation is unmistakeable.