Is Subban heading towards another Norris?

[Genesis76]

What about Burns? he's second in Points this year and he's got the most Points of all defensemen since December 1st, with 36 Points in 32 games. 11 more than your PK. Burns could be heading for another 70 + Point season and he's won the Norris before too, unlike Klingenberg.

If you’re as smart as i think you are you would heavely consider how many offensive starts both those guys have on avg.

Then you will realise PK has more goals than any D in the league despite being played as defensive Defender.

Consider also that most his points come from EVen strengh minutes.

Basicly comparing PK to Burns is like comparing Bobby Orr to Mike Green.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

I feel so bad for Weber. Gave his heart and soul to Nashville and got traded just before they went to the next level.

I guess Subban could have been the reason they got there but still, he deserves to be on a playoff team.

And don't get me started on Price. Generational goaltender that will never win a cup because he got stuck with a GM that couldn't build a half decent team around him.

I understand feeling bad for Weber, I'm sure he never wanted to leave Nashville for CircusTown, but you can't feel bad for Price.

Price chose to take the 8 year, $88M contract. He knew Bergevin wasn't close to having a playoff team and he still took the contract.

 

[Genesis76]

If you think Mtl was a CircusTown now, wait until Price’s contract kicks in...

It wont take long before people start Booooing him every time he touches the puck... on every game.

Examples:
Malakhov
Brisebois

 

[bobholly39]

I understand feeling bad for Weber, I'm sure he never wanted to leave Nashville for CircusTown, but you can't feel bad for Price.

Price chose to take the 8 year, $88M contract. He knew Bergevin wasn't close to having a playoff team and he still took the contract.

lol. Why wouldn't Price take that contract? Not sure if serious.

I bet you also think Toews should have told Chicago "no - i'm only worth about 7M. Keep the extra 3.5M to get us more players to help us win more cups".

 

[Johno]

What about Burns? he's second in Points this year and he's got the most Points of all defensemen since December 1st, with 36 Points in 32 games. 11 more than your PK. Burns could be heading for another 70 + Point season and he's won the Norris before too, unlike Klingenberg.

He can head wherever he wants, but in the summer he and Klingberg will have equal amount of Norris trophies.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

lol. Why wouldn't Price take that contract? Not sure if serious.

I bet you also think Toews should have told Chicago "no - i'm only worth about 7M. Keep the extra 3.5M to get us more players to help us win more cups".

Obviously everyone would take that huge contract. You can't feel bad for Price not winning the Stanley Cup, he chose to sign with a team that will never have the right pieces to win a Stanley Cup.

 

[Johno]

If you’re as smart as i think you are you would heavely consider how many offensive starts both those guys have on avg.

Then you will realise PK has more goals than any D in the league despite being played as defensive Defender.

Consider also that most his points come from EVen strengh minutes.

Basicly comparing PK to Burns is like comparing Bobby Orr to Mike Green.

Goals you have right, but then comparing to Kling to PK

PK has 24 EV points vs Kling's 34 EV points
of PK's points 55% are EV points vs 65% of Klingberg's points are EV points!

OZ start % (5v5): PK 42% vs Kling 49%. Which is not THAT big of a difference.

 

[Genesis76]

Goals you have right, but then comparing to Kling to PK

PK has 24 EV points vs Kling's 34 EV points
of PK's points 55% are EV points vs 65% of Klingberg's points are EV points!

OZ start % (5v5): PK 42% vs Kling 49%. Which is not THAT big of a difference.

7% is not a big difference?

Cmon man.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

If you’re as smart as i think you are you would heavely consider how many offensive starts both those guys have on avg.

Then you will realise PK has more goals than any D in the league despite being played as defensive Defender.

Consider also that most his points come from EVen strengh minutes.

Basicly comparing PK to Burns is like comparing Bobby Orr to Mike Green.

And we're officially off the rails.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Goals you have right, but then comparing to Kling to PK

PK has 24 EV points vs Kling's 34 EV points
of PK's points 55% are EV points vs 65% of Klingberg's points are EV points!

OZ start % (5v5): PK 42% vs Kling 49%. Which is not THAT big of a difference.

Klingberg starts 30% in the Dzone to Subban's 36%. That's a total of 13% difference. 7% is gigantic, btw. Their deployment is practically opposite and that's ok to acknowledge. Klingberg has a defensive D pairing behind him to eat the defensive assignments, where Subban IS the D pairing eating the defensive assignments. Klingberg is getting deployed like Burns, P.K. like Vlasic.

It's not their fault what minutes they get, it's what they do with them. It's why Burns won last year despite overwhelmingly preferential deployment--he absolutely killed it. Net gain to the team.

 

[Johno]

Klingberg starts 30% in the Dzone to Subban's 36%. That's a total of 13% difference. 7% is gigantic, btw. Their deployment is practically opposite and that's ok to acknowledge. Klingberg has a defensive D pairing behind him to eat the defensive assignments, where Subban IS the D pairing eating the defensive assignments. Klingberg is getting deployed like Burns, P.K. like Vlasic.

It's not their fault what minutes they get, it's what they do with them. It's why Burns won last year despite overwhelmingly preferential deployment--he absolutely killed it. Net gain to the team.

The 13% is a bit misleading as I was focusing on the Ozone starts (~7% difference) to the points production. And that Kling does convert on his opportunities at a better rate.

Also come on, let's not pull Burns into this, he starts 63% in the Ozone. Totally different horse. Difference from JK to BB is double vs from P.K to JK.

Ps. while I won't claim either the winner yet, as there is a lot of hockey left, I'm willing to admit that Subban should be ahead in the Norris race. Not a lot, but still ahead.

 

[ThirdManIn]

edit: my numbers were off

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

The 13% is a bit misleading as I was focusing on the Ozone starts (~7% difference) to the points production. And that Kling does convert on his opportunities at a better rate.

Also come on, let's not pull Burns into this, he starts 63% in the Ozone. Totally different horse. Difference from JK to BB is double vs from P.K to JK.

Ps. while I won't claim either the winner yet, as there is a lot of hockey left, I'm willing to admit that Subban should be ahead in the Norris race. Not a lot, but still ahead.

What? No, he doesn't. He starts 39% in the ozone. If you want to talk about 'misleading,' stop transposing your numbers to be more convenient.

It's similar to what Burns had going on last year because like Burns, who had Vlasic-Braun eating all the tough d assignments and starts, Klingberg has (had) Methot-Pateryn-Hamhuis-Pitlick-Oleskiak eating all those tough minutes for him this year. He's getting deployed like the weapon he is and he's crushing it in a roughly similar fashion. Meanwhile, Subban gets the same deployment Vlasic gets. The slight difference there is that Subban plays slightly lesser competition whereas Vlasic gets absolutely murdered with matchups.

If you're going to reference production, you have to consider situation. Klingberg is having a monster production season, but he is given pillowsoft deployment in comparison. It is what it is.

 

[badboy1994]

Y’all make no sense, who cares who starts in what zone. This is ice hockey, it’s a supper fast pace game and you can get to one end of the rink to the other end of the rink within seconds.

Overall it’s ....
1. Hedman
2. Doughty
3. Klingberg
4. Subban
5. Josi


Now Klingberg has been the best defenseman hands down this year but he has to do it for a few years before he can pass the top 2.

 

[Johno]

What? No, he doesn't. He starts 39% in the ozone. If you want to talk about 'misleading,' stop transposing your numbers to be more convenient.

It's similar to what Burns had going on last year because like Burns, who had Vlasic-Braun eating all the tough d assignments and starts, Klingberg has (had) Methot-Pateryn-Hamhuis-Pitlick-Oleskiak eating all those tough minutes for him this year. He's getting deployed like the weapon he is and he's crushing it in a roughly similar fashion. Meanwhile, Subban gets the same deployment Vlasic gets. The slight difference there is that Subban plays slightly lesser competition whereas Vlasic gets absolutely murdered with matchups.

If you're going to reference production, you have to consider situation. Klingberg is having a monster production season, but he is given pillowsoft deployment in comparison. It is what it is.

Umm yes he does. Look it up, this year Burns' Ozone start% is 63% (5v5) and 68% in the Ozone (all situations). I'm not making anything up, if two or three different sites have it wrong then please prove to me that I'm miss-quoting but as far as I know those are the correct numbers.

Methot has played a grand total of 16 games, not a big "tough start eater" also Oleksiak was in Dallas for 21 games and he played very easy minutes as well. Pitlick isn't even a defender...

Also let's get on this a bit more, CF% QoC and TOI% QoC (5v5 both)
For Subban these numbers are 50.42 and 29.08
For Kling these numbers are 49.97 and 28.94
Sure Subban sees tougher ones for sure, but not other worldly difference.

 

[Raccoon Jesus]

Umm yes he does. Look it up, this year Burns' Ozone start% is 63% (5v5) and 68% in the Ozone (all situations). I'm not making anything up, if two or three different sites have it wrong then please prove to me that I'm miss-quoting but as far as I know those are the correct numbers.

Methot has played a grand total of 16 games, not a big "tough start eater" also Oleksiak was in Dallas for 21 games and he played very easy minutes as well. Pitlick isn't even a defender...

Also let's get on this a bit more, CF% QoC and TOI% QoC (5v5 both)
For Subban these numbers are 50.42 and 29.08
For Kling these numbers are 49.97 and 28.94
Sure Subban sees tougher ones for sure, but not other worldly difference.

I see what you're looking at. You're confusing zone starts with actual starts. Zone starts is the ratio of offensive to defensive faceoffs disregarding the neutral zone entirely. While that's important to a degree, you can't completely disregard the neutral zone when you're discussing defensive deployment. There IS a BIG difference when you consider PK and Klingbergs actual percentage deployment. PK is only 26% ozone, 37% neutral, 37% dzone, Klingberg is 30% ozone, 40 neutral zone, 30 dzone. Relative to their teams, though, that's significant, because Klingberg is getting the softest starts and Subban Nashville's hardest.

And the reason I listed all those guys for Dallas rather than just two is because even though those guys haven't played every game (for example, obviously Methot and Oleksiak), the common theme is that there's at least one Dallas pairing eating harder starts so Klingberg can go free. For Subban, he's getting the harder starts so Josi can run free.

 

[Johno]

I see what you're looking at. You're confusing zone starts with actual starts. Zone starts is the ratio of offensive to defensive faceoffs disregarding the neutral zone entirely. While that's important to a degree, you can't completely disregard the neutral zone when you're discussing defensive deployment. There IS a BIG difference when you consider PK and Klingbergs actual percentage deployment. PK is only 26% ozone, 37% neutral, 37% dzone, Klingberg is 30% ozone, 40 neutral zone, 30 dzone. Relative to their teams, though, that's significant, because Klingberg is getting the softest starts and Subban Nashville's hardest.

And the reason I listed all those guys for Dallas rather than just two is because even though those guys haven't played every game (for example, obviously Methot and Oleksiak), the common theme is that there's at least one Dallas pairing eating harder starts so Klingberg can go free. For Subban, he's getting the harder starts so Josi can run free.

That's the one I'm regarding, sorry for confusion.
I for one think it is perhaps better to dismiss the neutral zone, for the these purposes as it doesn't differentiate where in the neutral zone the start happens. A big difference if it's just outside the off. blueline or just outside the def. blueline, yet they are put together there. (also hard to quantify any true zone deployment as a lot of the game happens on the fly IMO)

But anyway from where this conversation started it was about point production more so than defensive play.

 

[Genesis76]

What a sociopath



Call 911

 

[Healthy DiPietro]

What about Burns? he's second in Points this year and he's got the most Points of all defensemen since December 1st, with 36 Points in 32 games. 11 more than your PK. Burns could be heading for another 70 + Point season and he's won the Norris before too, unlike Klingenberg.

I have a theory that you feel a sting of jealousy over the fact that two Swedes have their own cyberpunk Netflix shows (Mute and Altered Carbon), and that you project it against Klingberg because dated Finnish b movie director Renny Harlin can't compete with his Hollywood status. Both you and me know it would be inconceivable that two Finns had their own cyberpunk shows on Netflix! Or that Finns would get to play Pennywise or Lara Croft for that matter. I call it the Cyberpunk Klingberg theory.

 

[CaptainBenn]

What a sociopath



Call 911

Young subban was so cuuuute and smiling
Why did bergevin trade him
I hate bergevin

 

[Genesis76]

Clear Winner

 

[Johno]

No clear winner this year

 

[kingsfan28]

Brett Burns and his -19 will not get any awards no matter how many points he puts up.

 

[Boxscore]

I think this is Hedman's year.

 

[Seiza]

IMO PK deserves the Norris more this year than last time he won. It should be a close race between Hedman and Subban, Klingberg with the third nomination.