InfinityIggy
Zagidulin's Dad
The mortal sin of not playing enough NHL games is pretty much the reason IMO.
Is Sidney Crosby on track to be (or already is) the 4th best forward ever?
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The mortal sin of not playing enough NHL games is pretty much the reason IMO.
Vaive50
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- Dec 24, 2015
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I don't know if it's been mentioned here earlier but I can think of some names (just off the top of my head) other than Gretzky, Lemieux and Howe that are just as good or better than Crosby. Those names are Guy Lafleur, Mike Bossy, Brian Trottier, Jaromir Jagr, Mark Messier, Marcel Dionne, Phil Espesito, Joe Sacic, Steve Yzermen, Brett Hull, Dennis Savard, Pavel Bure, Peter Stastney, Maurice Richard.
Crosby's resume after 14 seasons (peak, prime, playoffs) is clearly stronger than anyone else's here after 14 seasons. I would like to hear your argument for any of these players.
He's in the mix with guys like Yzerman, Stastny, Messier, Richard, Beliveau, Trottier, Dionne, Sakic, Forsberg. So probably the 3rd tier. You could maybe argue he is the best of this group, but still, idk. Guys like Esposito, Bossy, Jagr, Lafleur, Bobby Hull, Mikita, Ovechkin are clearly better than Crosby.
Tier 1:
Gretzky
Lemieux
Howe
Tier 2:
Esposito
Ovechkin
Bossy
Jagr
Crosby
Lafleur
Bobby Hull
Mikita
Tier 3 (in no particular order)
Yzerman
Stastny
Messier
Richard
Beliveau
Trottier
Dionne
Sakic
Forsberg
Edit: After some thought, I've changed my mind about Crosby; I think he belongs in tier 2, pretty much on par with, or slightly ahead of Lafleur.
Tier 1:
Gretzky
Lemieux
Howe
Tier 2:
Esposito
Ovechkin
Bossy
Jagr
Crosby
Lafleur
Bobby Hull
Mikita
Tier 3 (in no particular order)
Yzerman
Stastny
Messier
Richard
Beliveau
Trottier
Dionne
Sakic
Forsberg
Edit: After some thought, I've changed my mind about Crosby; I think he belongs in tier 2, pretty much on par with, or slightly ahead of Lafleur.
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OK, assuming Crosby retired tomorrow, what would the argument be to put Yzerman above him?
MadLuke
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- Jan 18, 2011
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Not the best player on is own team according to many (many have him even #3), make him easy to push down in all time ranking ?
After some tought, I'm going to change Crosby's position in my rankings. I will edit my post. Besides, in my original post, I did say he's probably the best of that 3rd group, but I've changed my mind and I think he belongs in tier 2.
MadLuke
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Bossy in a different tier than Trottier I am a bit curious of the argument.
During Bossy career (100% is prime)
Players with 500 games or more Regular season
Gretzky: 2.4 ppg
Statsny: 1.5ppg
Bossy: 1.5 ppg
Kurri: 1.45 ppg
Dionne: 1.42 ppg
Trottier: 1.37ppg
Total:
Gretzky: 1520
Bossy: 1126
Dionne: 1101
Trottier: 1035
Playoff ppg (at least 50 games)
Gretzky: 2.07 ppg
Kurri: 1.41 ppg
Savard: 1.28ppg
Statsny: 1.27 ppg
Bossy: 1.24 ppg
Messier: 1.23ppg
Total:
Gretzky: 209
Bossy: 160
Trottier: 150
Kurri: 138
With what Trottier bring in Selke defence, leadership, physicality, durability, Bossy above him sound quite disputable ? Because of playoff goalscoring ?
Your tiers are pretty good. Don’t agree with the orders if they are ordered and I think Bossy should go to tier 3.
Mostly because of goalscoring in general, as well as him having the highest g/gp in NHL history. He was a special player. But so is every one of these guys, so I guess it comes down to how much you value goalscoring. My rankings is the way I see it.
MadLuke
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That is almost pure trivia and due to when he played and for how long, during is own career he didn't had the highest g/gp.
Gretzky: 0.86
Bossy: .76
Kurri: .68
Both Lemieux(605) and Gretzky(575) scored their first 500 goals is less games it took Bossy (647):
List of NHL players with 500 goals - Wikipedia
But the fact he hang with those 2 is absolutely incredible for sure.
Nathaniel Skywalker
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Nathaniel Skywalker
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Peter stastney? Bure? Sakic? Trottier? Come on man. Crosby has played 14 seasons now. He is not some new kid on the block anymore. He’s clearly passed those players.
Crosby, 7 best % leads over #10 in points
32-27-26-19-17-15-14
Bossy, 7 best % leads over #10 in points
39-38-17-16-15-13-12
At this point, you can pick Crosby based on longevity, but at their best, Bossy was better.
Which is generally a problem with Crosby: his peak is rather meh compared to pretty much everyone in top20 (and probably even top20 forwards).
Yes, he probably lost his potentially best seasons to injuries; yes, he compensated for the low peak, to an extent, by staying elite for a long time.
But taking Crosby over someone like Bobby Hull or Jagr... Just no.
32-27-26-19-17-15-14
Bossy, 7 best % leads over #10 in points
39-38-17-16-15-13-12
At this point, you can pick Crosby based on longevity, but at their best, Bossy was better.
Which is generally a problem with Crosby: his peak is rather meh compared to pretty much everyone in top20 (and probably even top20 forwards).
Yes, he probably lost his potentially best seasons to injuries; yes, he compensated for the low peak, to an extent, by staying elite for a long time.
But taking Crosby over someone like Bobby Hull or Jagr... Just no.
KingPuckChoo
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i think Gordie Howe is a tad bit overrated
and i'd prefer taking Bossy
so although ranking players like that from different eras 1-5 is a difficult thing to do, Bossy is top 5 all time for me
Crosby is a complete player, but if i want goals scored, i'm picking Bossy over Crosby every single time
ps: no knock on Crosby
also, my point was mostly the fact that Bossy's name is never brought up by people, but then i see names like Yzerman and co...
he's often the forgotten player, like people don't even give him an honorable mention in conversations, yet when Bossy joined the Islanders...that's when the Isles became a dynasty (yes there's an entire team there too, i know)
there was a time where Bossy was scoring at will, delivering 60 goal seasons year in and out like nobody's business, i think he deserves to be at least part of the discussion
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Son Goku
henlo u stinky egg
He is not close, really.
Crosby, 7 best % leads over #10 in points
32-27-26-19-17-15-14
Jagr, 7 best % leads over #10 in points
43-39-36-32-32-29-22
Hull Sr., 7 best % leads over #10 in points
63-45-45-37-35-29-26
The majority doesn't care about using only full seasons. Crosby played enough to show what he was capable of.
MadLuke
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Not sure how that metric hold up for the 06 era, there were often 9-12 forward on a good team first line/power play unit and just 18 overall.
First 14 season Jagr (at 31 like Crosby is now)
Regular season player with 500 games during Jagr first 14 seasons
Gretzky: 1.37
Forsberg: 1.28
Jagr: 1.27
Sakic: 1.23
Lindros: 1.21
playoff ppg among 50 games players during Jagr first 14 seasons
Lemieux: 1.59
Greztky: 1.40
Forsberg: 1.15
Lindros: 1.14
Sakic: 1.10
Bure: 1.09
Messier: 1.08
Jagr: 1.05
Crosby first 14 season RS (at least 500 games)
Crosby: 1.29 ppg
Malkin: 1.18 ppg
Ovechkin: 1.12 ppg
Kane: 1.04
Datsyuk/Stamkos: 1.03
Playoff (at least 50 games)
Crosby: 1.13
Malkin: 1.04
Ovechkin: 0.98
Kane: .97
Getzlaf: .96
Jagr peaked higher and achieved health during is peak season considerably more, but it is not like he is not close imo.
Is PPG after 14 seasons is higher than Jagr, the average goal by game by season during that stretch was of 2.963, for Crosby 2.83 while having more playoff success during those 14 season (but that a lot to do with luck/rest of the team you have to have the chance to play in the playoff).
We can obviously remove Lemieux/Gretzky name when they appear above, but outside a Jagr faced much better competition argument, that I would think could be true early 90s) it is not like is 14 first season of is career seem distanced and not close of Crosby.
It's probably because bossy was never considered best on his team just like malkin is forgotten about .
I guess most people name both sakic and foppa when discussing lists of players tho so maybe it's unfair.
Howe gets in pretty much because he played for freaking ever . And he has pretty great finishes throughout his entire career in terms of scoring. Top 5 in scoring for 20 years straight is a pretty good stat.
Plus 12 top three hart finishes and six harts / rosses . 20 all star team selections. Idk how Crosby ever bumps him
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buffalowing88
Registered User
In a full season, he was not capable of peaking higher than Malkin, Kane, and, by some metrics, D. Sedin.
If we use partial seasons, shouldn't we do the same for everyone else? That is, pitch Crosby's 10/11 or 12/13 against their hot streaks?
The use of ppg basically says: let's mix together their peak seasons and meh seasons and deduct from Jagr's best season if his 14th-best season is not good enough.
I can give you that: Jagr's 8th to 14th-best seasons are worse than Crosby's 8th to 14th-best seasons - though 3 of Crosby's 14 seasons are drastically shortened by injuries. But still, Crosby has a longer prime than Jagr.
But in his 3 best seasons and even in his 7 best seasons Jagr was much better, and that's what really counts.
You cannot trade top3-top5 finishes against Art Ross wins that easily, one win is probably worth 3 or 4 such finishes.
I mean, Orr played 9 kinda-sorta full seasons. There are tons of defensemen who had a longer prime. But no one was close to peak Orr, and thus Orr is better than anyone.
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