Is Scott Niedermayer the Worst Conn Smythe Winner Ever?

[vadim sharifijanov]

Kind of seems like the Claude Lemieux one becomes more controversial as time goes on. I know Stevens was a good candidate too, but I don't really remember anyone at the time being too upset to see Claude get it. m I wrong here?

i was and remain a huge claude lemieux fan and i think his '95 was miles better than nieuwendyk or williams, especially when one considers his lockdown defensive contributions. and you're right, it is a lot more defensible, being that there was only one guy who was clearly ahead of him, instead of multiple guys for nieuwy and williams.

but then and now, i think the voters went with the big goal total over the obvious and real MVP, which was scott stevens.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

By the way, off topic but has there been a more American-laden team to win the Cup than the 1995 Devils?

the '91 pens had barrasso, stevens, mullen, scott young, phil bourque, gordie roberts, and peter taglianetti, with badger bob behind the bench. jay caufield up in the press box.

fewer guys total, but more in leading roles: coach, starting goalie, leading goal scorer.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Or Jones. He probably wins it if the Sharks take it. He'd have needed to be even better to win and he'd have been almost a lock.

Absolutely. Jones was phenomenal for the most part in the Cup finals. Definitely kept that series closer than it was given the possession and shot domination by Pittsburgh. I came away very impressed with his play.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

i was and remain a huge claude lemieux fan and i think his '95 was miles better than nieuwendyk or williams, especially when one considers his lockdown defensive contributions. and you're right, it is a lot more defensible, being that there was only one guy who was clearly ahead of him, instead of multiple guys for nieuwy and williams.

but then and now, i think the voters went with the big goal total over the obvious and real MVP, which was scott stevens.

I've always felt that Stevens post-1995 career has helped his case for that Conn Smythe in a lot of people's minds.

Not saying that's the case with you. It was certainly defensible to like Stevens better, but my impression is it was a tighter race then than ut is now.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

Is 2013 Toews a lowkey big winner here? I mean, his performance in that playoffs gets **** on constantly (less here but in general), but it turns out he was just 5 points away from a Smythe.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

IMO, Crosby has put to rest any lingering critiques some have made regarding performing in key games and the SCF. He deserves full marks for his Two Cups and CS, and for being considered if not the best playoff performer, certainly no worse than being Top 3.

Which of Toews, Keith, or Kane is he clearly better than? You can absolutely argue that he's outside the top three at the moment.

None of the Hawks "Conn Smythe trio" have as much milestones as Sid.

You would expect Keith, a defenseman, to achieve those types of milestones?

 

[Big Phil]

I've always felt that Stevens post-1995 career has helped his case for that Conn Smythe in a lot of people's minds.

Not saying that's the case with you. It was certainly defensible to like Stevens better, but my impression is it was a tighter race then than ut is now.

Stevens in 1995 was probably #2 on the pecking order for the Devils that spring. I still think Claude deserved it. But if we are comparing other Cup runs, I think the way people thought of Stevens in 2003 was comparable to 1995. Good run, definitely important, probably didn't deserve it as there was someone better. But in 2000 it was all him.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

Which of Toews, Keith, or Kane is he clearly better than? You can absolutely argue that he's outside the top three at the moment.

Plus Kopitar and Doughty.

I still can't rationalize Sid's Smythe here. You can't even excuse his lack of offensive production with success in a defensive role because half of his ES matchups went PPG+, he led Pens forwards in GA and was a 47% GF player for the entire playoffs at 5v5.

I guess being Captain and leading your team in Corsi is all you need to win the Smythe in 2016...

 

[daver]

Which of Toews, Keith, or Kane is he clearly better than? You can absolutely argue that he's outside the top three at the moment.

I would like to hear your argument.

 

[Big Phil]

Plus Kopitar and Doughty.

I still can't rationalize Sid's Smythe here. You can't even excuse his lack of offensive production with success in a defensive role because half of his ES matchups went PPG+, he led Pens forwards in GA and was a 47% GF player for the entire playoffs at 5v5.

I guess being Captain and leading your team in Corsi is all you need to win the Smythe in 2016...

No. They do not have the playoff career of Crosby. They do not have the playoff career of Malkin either, let alone Toews, Kane, Keith.

The thing with Crosby is that he did a lot of good things in 2016 that didn't always get on the scoresheet. He was all over the ice. How many posts did the Pens hit? Seriously. The amount of goals they scored was not consistent with how dominant they were. Crosby was part of that for sure.

I would say his two-way play, his leadership and his intangibles got him the Smythe. Plus no other Pen stood out to the point where you say "That's the guy". An example is Game 2 in overtime vs. San Jose. Crosby is directing Letang and Sheary where to go with a faceoff win and what to do. 5 seconds later the puck is in the net. Sid gets an assist. It was a bit like Phil Esposito huddling everyone together before the last faceoff before the Henderson goal, even though it took longer after the faceoff. I don't know, that was just pure leadership on Sid's part. Once that goal went in I for one knew for sure there was no way San Jose was winning.

Which of Toews, Keith, or Kane is he clearly better than? You can absolutely argue that he's outside the top three at the moment.

It is pretty close to a tie with Crosby, Toews, Kane and Keith. Malkin is very close too.

Last year I would have told you the Hawks trio has the better playoff career. But after this year it is pretty much even now.

Malkin in 2009, Crosby in 2009, Kane in 2010, Toews in 2010 and Keith in 2015 are all pretty epic postseason runs more or less equal of each other. Keith's is probably the best I've seen from a defenseman since Leetch in 1994.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I would like to hear your argument.

Keith, Toews, and Kane all have more Cups and more historically significant playoff runs where they performed well than Crosby has.

I would say this season pushed Crosby back ahead of Kopitar and Doughty though.

 

[Big Phil]

Keith, Toews, and Kane all have more Cups and more historically significant playoff runs where they performed well than Crosby has.

I would say this season pushed Crosby back ahead of Kopitar and Doughty though.

Crosby was behind Kopitar and Doughty prior to this year? Wow. I can't see that. Anyway it is sliced, Crosby had two great playoff runs in 2008 and 2009 prior to this year. Two years with good numbers but in both cases did not do well in the series they lost (2010, 2013) and the rest are middling first round exits. Then there is this year where he wins the Smythe with 19 points and has a good run. 137 points now, 118 going into these playoffs. How did Doughty and Kopitar have a better playoff career prior to that?

As I said above, Malkin/Crosby in 2009, Keith in 2015 and Toews/Kane in 2010 are all pretty similar playoff runs.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Crosby was behind Kopitar and Doughty prior to this year? Wow. I can't see that. Anyway it is sliced, Crosby had two great playoff runs in 2008 and 2009 prior to this year. Two years with good numbers but in both cases did not do well in the series they lost (2010, 2013) and the rest are middling first round exits. Then there is this year where he wins the Smythe with 19 points and has a good run. 137 points now, 118 going into these playoffs. How did Doughty and Kopitar have a better playoff career prior to that?

As I said above, Malkin/Crosby in 2009, Keith in 2015 and Toews/Kane in 2010 are all pretty similar playoff runs.

Doughty's last run was similar too.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Crosby was behind Kopitar and Doughty prior to this year? Wow. I can't see that. Anyway it is sliced, Crosby had two great playoff runs in 2008 and 2009 prior to this year. Two years with good numbers but in both cases did not do well in the series they lost (2010, 2013) and the rest are middling first round exits. Then there is this year where he wins the Smythe with 19 points and has a good run. 137 points now, 118 going into these playoffs. How did Doughty and Kopitar have a better playoff career prior to that?

As I said above, Malkin/Crosby in 2009, Keith in 2015 and Toews/Kane in 2010 are all pretty similar playoff runs.

Well, prior to this year Kopitar and Doughty had more Cup-winning runs that they performed great in. And before this year they didn't have any embarrassing upsets/blown 3-1 leads to taint their playoff resumes. Crosby still has those, but this year undid a good amount of the damage in my eyes. He adapted his game and did what was necessary to win games, point totals be damned. Kopitar and Doughty both disappointed and lost handily against a team that Crosby and the Penguins dominated. That reflects poorly on them in comparison.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

No. They do not have the playoff career of Crosby. They do not have the playoff career of Malkin either, let alone Toews, Kane, Keith.

So why do those two players have like half of the spots on the list of "best playoff series" by the players in question? Seems like you're really just knocking K/D for not compiling enough. I guess they need to destroy some dudes on their way out of the league before losing in the second round to really earn that respect.

The thing with Crosby is that he did a lot of good things in 2016 that didn't always get on the scoresheet. He was all over the ice. How many posts did the Pens hit? Seriously. The amount of goals they scored was not consistent with how dominant they were. Crosby was part of that for sure.

But Malkin was their best possession forward, and making excuses for posts is wack when Washington's lack of finish is the reason Pittsburgh made it out of the East in the first place.

Sid did a lot of minutia, sure. But him doing that didn't lead to positive on-ice results for the Penguins beyond shot differential throughout the playoffs.

I would say his two-way play, his leadership and his intangibles got him the Smythe. Plus no other Pen stood out to the point where you say "That's the guy". An example is Game 2 in overtime vs. San Jose. Crosby is directing Letang and Sheary where to go with a faceoff win and what to do. 5 seconds later the puck is in the net. Sid gets an assist. It was a bit like Phil Esposito huddling everyone together before the last faceoff before the Henderson goal, even though it took longer after the faceoff. I don't know, that was just pure leadership on Sid's part. Once that goal went in I for one knew for sure there was no way San Jose was winning.

Kessel was "the guy." He put coaches through absolute matchup hell and nobody timed their adjustments well enough to catch Sid or Malkin cold. Now, Sid's role set the table for this to happen, but if "creating the environment for your teammate's crazy numbers" was a criteria for the trophy, Chara, Kopitar and Toews win between 11 and 13.

And the Sharks needed the split on the road, that was obvious going in.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

Well, prior to this year Kopitar and Doughty had more Cup-winning runs that they performed great in. And before this year they didn't have any embarrassing upsets/blown 3-1 leads to taint their playoff resumes. Crosby still has those, but this year undid a good amount of the damage in my eyes. He adapted his game and did what was necessary to win games, point totals be damned. Kopitar and Doughty both disappointed and lost handily against a team that Crosby and the Penguins dominated. That reflects poorly on them in comparison.

Well said.

My one issue is that players make those adjustments all the time and don't get rewarded with the Smythe.

Also, I'd just like to make it known that I had K/D as names "in the conversation" rather than ""dudes definitely better than Sid in the playoffs."

 

[ImporterExporter]

Oh, the grand old Cup counting argument! Tried, true and worth a pile of.......

Toews has a Smythe and Selke to his name. What other significant milestones does he have compared to his peers?

Sid is the only player in hockey history to captain all 3 teams of the Triple Gold Club to a gold medal. Scored a goal that a few people remember in 2010. Another in the goal medal game in 2014. Been Team Canada Captain since 2014 and an Alternate since 2010 (aged 22). But, yeah....another largely fairy tale BS narrative that Crosby is some horrendous leader/captain......which is another aspect that folks just gush over regarding Toews. And FTR, I think Toews is a fantastic leader and Captain. I just don't think he's some mystical leader who is far and away better than Sid or others. Judging that is nearly impossible given our lack of access to locker rooms, or anything outside of the actual games themselves.

87 is the youngest captain to hoist the SC. Been there 3 times (2 wins) and unlike Chicago, hasn't feasted on inferior competition. You know in 2010 when they beat an 88 point and 3rd in the Atlantic finish team in Philly? Or winning another in a season almost half the duration of a normal 82 game schedule. The Pens 2 trips against Detroit were tougher than anything Chicago has ever faced in a final. It's not even remotely debatable. 2016 SJ trumps 2010 Philly. And if you believe in another BS narrative that the Western Conference is some conglomerate of vastly superior teams, how is that the Pens have won twice in 3 tries and came incredibly close to pushing the 08 Wings to 7 games?

Then there are the the Harts, Pearsons, Art Ross's, Rocket Richard, Assist title, bunches of post season all star finishes. And that is with Crosby essentially losing 2 of his very best years due to injury, especially 2010-11 when he was running away with every award under the sun. Or 2013 when it took the rest of the field 5 weeks to catch and barely pass him in the scoring race, after he took a slap shot off the jaw, again robbing him of a Hart and Art Ross.

The only player in the past 11 years that has had any legitimate claim to being better than Sid is Ovechkin, for a brief periods between 08 and 2010. I'd put Kane up there based on this season's 1st half, but lets see how sustainable that is moving forward. Of course you'll have McDavid and others pushing for the top as well.

And playoff production?

Crosby's 08 and 09 are better than anything Toews has done. And from a career standpoint? 137 points in the exact same # of games Toews has played who has 108. One ranks 12th all time. The other 72nd, per game.

Do i need to bring up regular season per game totals as well?

If we're bringing up the 2011-14 "failures" of Crosby (since he assumes complete and total control of the Pens) are we going to bring up these for Toews and the Hawks? 2011 and 12 first round loss? 2016 first round exit? It's not like Crosby hasn't helped his team to 4 ECF's and 3 SCF's by the age of 28 or anything. People want to so quickly point out the typical anti Crosby agenda of a stretch where the Pens vastly underachieved, without doing the same for other franchises, or taking into account coaching, terrible FO/ownership situations, etc.

Like refs, be consistent. Don't bring up **** and say it's exclusive to one player, regardless of who it is, because more often than not, you'd be clearly proven wrong and look like a fool.

At the end of the day there is a significant gap between Crosby and Toews in an all time light. And there always will be. It doesn't mean that Toews isn't a fantastic hockey player. But there are no sensible people putting him anywhere remotely close to Crosby in an all time setting.

 

[daver]

Plus Kopitar and Doughty.

I still can't rationalize Sid's Smythe here. You can't even excuse his lack of offensive production with success in a defensive role because half of his ES matchups went PPG+, he led Pens forwards in GA and was a 47% GF player for the entire playoffs at 5v5....

Where are you getting this information from?

But who is excusing his lack of offensive production? He was 2nd on his team in scoring and was in on the key scoring plays more than any other player.

Assuming you had Kessel as the winner, you don't think going against 2nd/3rd lines and 2/3rd d-pairings hold any significance?

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

A few things:

1) Sid's numerical playoff peak is pretty much the definition of "feasting off of inferior competition."
2) Attempting to discredit a playoff team featuring post-06 Chris Pronger is laughable.
3) The 2010 Canucks > Any Eastern Team the Pens faced between 08 and 09.
4) Nobody is arguing offensive production with Sid vs Toews/Kopitar/Bergeron in the playoffss. The question has always been, if nobody's producing consistent offense (as Sid again did not), does their ability to consistently not allow goes (which Sid hasn't really demonstrated) take on a unique type of value?

 

[daver]

Keith, Toews, and Kane all have more Cups and more historically significant playoff runs where they performed well than Crosby has.

I would say this season pushed Crosby back ahead of Kopitar and Doughty though.

How convenient that Crosby's 2008 run would not be included in your assessment, or his playoff PPG and point total.

 

[daver]

A few things:

1) Sid's numerical playoff peak is pretty much the definition of "feasting off of inferior competition."

Inferior how? Please provide evidence of this other than the point totals of the best offensive player of the era.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

Where are you getting this information from?

Corsica.hockey (.hockey instead of .com). It is a stupendous resource.

But who is excusing his lack of offensive production? He was 2nd on his team in scoring and was in on the key scoring plays more than any other player.

He got 9 of 19 in by-far his easiest series and then proceeded to score at less than .5PPG for the rest of the playoffs. While leading his team in goals against. And being a negative goal differential player. And Kessel/Bonino would like a word with you.

Assuming you had Kessel as the winner, you don't think going against 2nd/3rd lines and 2/3rd d-pairings hold any significance?

It does, but I usually defer to players with excellent possession and goal splits but lacking individual offensive numbers, especially compared to a teammate on another line, or a low-work goaltender.

While Kessel started off against lower level competition and that's great, he was also stuck with Sid's goal debt, so it's all kind of a wash for me.

Also also, according to QoC by TOI, Kessel got the second most difficult matchups and Malkin was the most sheltered one.

 

[daver]

So why do those two players have like half of the spots on the list of "best playoff series" by the players in question? Seems like you're really just knocking K/D for not compiling enough. I guess they need to destroy some dudes on their way out of the league before losing in the second round to really earn that respect.

There is a difference between 'best playoff performances' and 'best playoff performers'.
Not counting Crosby's 2008 run seems a bit worse than giving consideration to playoff performances other than Cup-winning runs.

 

[daver]

Well, prior to this year Kopitar and Doughty had more Cup-winning runs that they performed great in. And before this year they didn't have any embarrassing upsets/blown 3-1 leads to taint their playoff resumes. Crosby still has those, but this year undid a good amount of the damage in my eyes. He adapted his game and did what was necessary to win games, point totals be damned. Kopitar and Doughty both disappointed and lost handily against a team that Crosby and the Penguins dominated. That reflects poorly on them in comparison.

Subjective opinions of playoff performances have no place in this discussion.

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

Inferior how? Please provide evidence of this other than the point totals of the best offensive player of the era.

08-09 was the best stretch of Malkin and Ovechkin's playoff career as well, with a lot of opponent carryover.