Is Scott Niedermayer the Worst Conn Smythe Winner Ever?

[Rhiessan71]

You've presented no evidence to prove your theory is anything more than a tin foil hat conspiracy.

You have presented your own personal bias quite well however.

Other than the 2 TO based voters already set to hand the CS to Sid before the Finals even started heh

And for the record, I don't have a bias against Crosby, I just don't have a bias for Crosby. There is a difference.

 

[K Fleur]

Other than the 2 TO based voters already set to hand the CS to Sid before the Finals even started heh

So 2 voters thinking a player was his team's Smythe favorite heading into the Finals proves "voter bias"? No possible way this could be influenced by Crosby's play(particularly with his play in games 6&7 being fresh in people's minds) the most logical conclusion is they were sticking it to Kessel. Or they just wanted to hand Crosby yet another award(It's all just one big conspiracy, thanks Bettman!). Just another overhyped product of the "Sportscenter generation". Impossible that he could have earned it.

And for the record I thought either Kessel, or Crosby were good choices for the Smythe. I am happier Crosby won as it has, and will likely continue to irk the usual suspects forever.

And for the record, I don't have a bias against Crosby, I just don't have a bias for Crosby. There is a difference.

Sure.

 

[Saku11]

I`m missing some, but Crosby has :two Olympic gold game goals , one in overtime and assist on on Cup winning goal . People that claim he is not clutch have no leg to stand on.

 

[daver]

I am happier Crosby won as it has, and will likely continue to irk the usual suspects forever.

I would rather he would have lost it. Objective observers would evaluate his 2016 performance with or without a CS. Now we have to put up with the inevitable thread-derailing posts of "worst CS ever!" and claims of bias anytime it is brought up in any context.

 

[Rhiessan71]

So 2 voters thinking a player was his team's Smythe favorite heading into the Finals proves "voter bias"? No possible way this could be influenced by Crosby's play(particularly with his play in games 6&7 being fresh in people's minds) the most logical conclusion is they were sticking it to Kessel. Or they just wanted to hand Crosby yet another award(It's all just one big conspiracy, thanks Bettman!). Just another overhyped product of the "Sportscenter generation". Impossible that he could have earned it.

You can play it off and try and make it more than it is but it's real simple...there're certain TO based voters that wouldn't relieve themselves on Kessel if he was on fire, that's a fact.
No one and I mean NO ONE would be shocked in the least if we learned that the 2 voters that some how left Kessel completely off the ballot were based in TO.
I could absolutely guess the name of one of them and I would be willing to bet a year's pay on it.

So keep yipping and yapping.
I fully admitted that Crosby at least had a shot at winning the Smythe.
Regardless if you believe there was some anti-Kessel bias or not, Crosby still more or less defaulted into it.

And for the record I thought either Kessel, or Crosby were good choices for the Smythe. I am happier Crosby won as it has, and will likely continue to irk the usual suspects forever.

No, you're happier because of those Crosby-coloured glasses you wear.
As someone brought up earlier, it's always funny when a very good player makes an fantastic play but if Sid makes that same play, it's one of the best in history.

Sid is a great player but he's not as great as some of you make him out to be.
Sid was a poor man's Toews these playoffs. A poor man's Toews that didn't kill penalties and took almost 80% of his draws outside of the defensive zone.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I`m missing some, but Crosby has :two Olympic gold game goals , one in overtime and assist on on Cup winning goal . People that claim he is not clutch have no leg to stand on.

He had an OT game winner in game 2 of the ECF when the Pens were trailing in the series 1-0. I don't think the Pens rebound from being down 2-0 to Tampa. And he was an absolute force in back to back elimination games in that series as well.

And yeah, the primary assist on the Cup winning goal. He also literally drew up and orchestrated the entire play that resulted in Sheary's game winner in OT of game 2 of the Cup final as well. Drew it up, won the face off back to Tanger, who found Sheary in the slot. Game over.

It's crap like that where people forget why he might have gotten CS votes. Not to mention his line literally shutting down Joe Thornton and Joe Pavelski to the tune of 1 combined goal between the 2 (an EN by Pavs) over 6 games.....

But hey, box score had him at 19 points for the playoffs (hello Pat Kane in 2013 btw) so he had no business even being in the discussion

Wasn't a slam dunk CS, but people suggesting Kessel (or anyone else for that matter) was robbed are drunk on hate. It's that simple. It's one thing to disagree with the CS decision, it's another to say Sid had zero business getting votes. Mike Sullivan said it best after the Cup win. "Sid's point totals don't reflect the impact he had all over the ice during the playoffs".....

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Other than the 2 TO based voters already set to hand the CS to Sid before the Finals even started heh

just as a thought experiment, would it be unreasonable if the two voters who left kessel completely off went letang, jones, murray?

 

[K Fleur]

You can play it off and try and make it more than it is but it's real simple...there're certain TO based voters that wouldn't relieve themselves on Kessel if he was on fire, that's a fact.
No one and I mean NO ONE would be shocked in the least if we learned that the 2 voters that some how left Kessel completely off the ballot were based in TO.
I could absolutely guess the name of one of them and I would be willing to bet a year's pay on it.

Between the two of us, I'm not the one trying to make it more than it is.

However if some Toronto voters ever come out and say they voted for Crosby just to stick it to Kessel for eating to many hotdogs then I'll gladly let you know you were right.

Until then

No, you're happier because of those Crosby-coloured glasses you wear.

No, I'm happier because it brings the "best" out of you as a poster. One doesn't need Crosby colored glassed to see that.

As someone brought up earlier, it's always funny when a very good player makes an fantastic play but if Sid makes that same play, it's one of the best in history.

Well at least we left the conspiracy theories and are now back to the trusted strawman.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Exactly. The vast majority of people on the HoH aren't the usual teenage boppers who think Crosby is a top 5 player all time. I've already outlined where I think this year puts Crosby in the all time C ranking (right around 10th, in the Sakic neighborhood) and probably 30th-35th all time, regardless of position, give or take a little bit.

The fact of the matter is there are many anti Crosby agenda's. Case in point is something I posted over the ATD section last night...

You know who will forget Kessel's contributions?

People who didn't watch Pittsburgh, outside of the Cup finals, which is largely anyone not a Pens fan. It's the reality.

As to the Crosby angle? It's pointless to drone on about it, but why not do it anyway?

A perfect example of the massive anti Sid agenda is that he's a terrible or at least average leader/captain and Jon Toews is by far the best in hockey. And it's not as if anyone can legitimately spin this with facts other than Toews has won 3 Cups. Or you could ask: If Crosby is such a terrible leader, what does that make long time captain, Alex Ovechin, who's team has never even made it to the final 4 in over a decade. But of course, that narrative is always, "his teammates let him down"....and I rest my case

I mean how can fans know what goes on in the locker rooms, off the ice, during the off season? Outside of watching games, where do people get their insight from?

And last I checked Crosby is the only player to Captain all 3 teams of the Triple Gold club to a goal medal. Ever.

He was the youngest captain ever to hoist the SC, and just won another, where he absolutely took it upon himself to adjust his game to a dominant 200 foot role, instead of relying heavily on the offensive side of the game. If you don't trust me, ask 70's who's echoed literally everything I've brought to the table over the past 2 months.

He's been Team Canada's C since 2014 (was an A all the way back in 2010 at 22 years old) and doesn't seem to losing that gig anytime soon. Hell Scott Niedermayer spoke on Sid's leadership abilities before the 2014 games and why he knew Crosby was ready for the captain's role.

Why would the head folks that run the conglomerate of Canadian stars pick Sid over Toews or someone else? I mean, the easy answer is "Crosby", or "he couldn't handle not getting the head position". Basically crap that people make up to fit their own agenda, without any basis of fact. I mean i actually saw post after post after post about how Sid had to call up Toews for permission to take the C for Team Canada because he had to have known JT was the more deserving/better leader, etc. Or, maybe, Crosby is just a good teammate and wanted to make sure his teammates were OK with that designation. Keeping a good and open line of communication is paramount to being a great leader.

It's not hard to find people that haven't even been a teammate of Sid's on the Pens talk about his work ethic and quiet confidence and calming influence both on and off the ice if you search the net. The young AHL guys like Sheary spoke to length on that during and after the Cup finals. Then you read about coaches and players that have played with him at one point or another and you hear glowing remarks. One of the latest players tribune articles by Ryan Whitney and Mike Rupp is a perfect of example of what I'm talking about. They're retired and don't have to sugar coat anything regarding Sid. Watching the Show Time "All Access" program that has followed the final 4 teams around the playoffs is another good barometer.

And FTR, I think Toews is an incredible Captain and leader. Maybe he is the best in the business, but I certainly don't think he's far and away the best, simply because fans have such a limited window into what goes on between teammates, coaches and what these guys do away from the ice. It's absolutely true.

It's just one of a handful of examples I can bring up regarding the very real anti Crosby bias that exists. Agenda's that often times have little to no factual backing and are mirrored in loathing.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Keep comparisons historical moving forward, or take it to the main board.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Keep comparisons historical moving forward, or take it to the main board.

OK.

3 players who have had just as "weak" CS in just the past decade.

Kane 2013
Niedermayer 2007
Ward 2006

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

OK.

3 players who have had just as "weak" CS in just the past decade.

Kane 2013
Niedermayer 2007
Ward 2006

And of those, I would say Crosby's is more in line with Niedermayer's: good (not great) runs but no one else did better so they deserved it.

Ward and Kane bug me a little more, as (IMHO) Brind'Amour and Keith were significantly more deserving.

 

[ImporterExporter]

And of those, I would say Crosby's is more in line with Niedermayer's: good (not great) runs but no one else did better so they deserved it.

Ward and Kane bug me a little more, as (IMHO) Brind'Amour and Keith were significantly more deserving.

This is my feeling on those 4 CS to the T.

Keith or Crawford were both stronger choices in 2013. That was the last time, prior to this year where I watched every game of the Cup final.

RBA was honestly the best choice as well. So clutch during that run for the Canes. Great on face offs, played well both ways, and 4 GW goals. I don't remember the intricacies being it was 10 years ago, but i do remember thinking he was the most deserving at the time.

But at the end of the day, this is just another point I make regarding the massive bias against Crosby that exists. There were literally multiple threads, some that had to shut down and continue, being they were so large, on how Kessel was robbed (or somebody else). Look at this thread. It's a perfect example of multiple people coming in and saying, "without a doubt Sid's CS is the weakest of the past 10 years" as if their opinion is based on cold hard facts and infallible.

At the end of the day, the common sense conclusion is that Sid's CS is not a slam dunk. It surely isn't going to be held in lure and that is the correct way to look at it. But it sure as hell isn't the weakest of all time and as some, myself included, have pointed out, there are multiple guys who just in the last 10 years have been just as (if not more) average when comparing them to the very best CS winners of this most recent era.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

Well you seemed to suggest some players were solidly ahead of him based on eyetest. Perhaps this was misunderstood.

First of all, he still has time to add to his playoff agenda but the playoff performing 'eyetest' shouldn't, IMO, keep him from moving past a player who, number one, has a clearly inferior regular season resume, and number two, does not have a better statistical playoff resume. I guess what I am saying is your eyetest metric is very subjective, and in Crosby's case, very questionable since he has one of the biggest and clutchest goals in hockey history and his duel with OV in '09 is arguably the most iconic playoff series since the '05 lockout. He singlehandedly dismantled Ottawa in 2010 with 14 points in 5 games. But all of these things tend to get overlooked by the unreasonable expectations and standards placed on him.

Not an eye test. Dominance.

I don't necessarily consider Crosby destroying a mediocre Ottawa team (and then getting pretty frustrated and sidetracked against a mediocre Montreal team in the following round) to be dominance. To me, that's the difference between his statistical resume (which is strong) and his playoff dominance (which I would like to see a little more of). I would agree he has everything else checked off with high marks on his playoff resume but the discussion was best playoff performer of all-time so no, I don't think its 'unreasonable' to say he's behind some guys who did do that.

As for the weight to put to that on how it moves him up or down an all-time list, I don't disagree with your points. But I was replying to a post referencing strictly top performing playoff centermen. And on that particular subject, I just can't see putting him amongst the pantheon just yet.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

RBA was honestly the best choice as well. So clutch during that run for the Canes. Great on face offs, played well both ways, and 4 GW goals. I don't remember the intricacies being it was 10 years ago, but i do remember thinking he was the most deserving at the time.

Off topic, but what stands out for me is that the Oilers that year had a great collection of two-way faceoff studs at center. Horcoff, Peca and Stoll. Between those three, they had an answer for Yzerman, Datsyuk and Thornton. They didn't have one for Brind'Amour.

At the end of the day, the common sense conclusion is that Sid's CS is not a slam dunk. It surely isn't going to be held in lure and that is the correct way to look at it. But it sure as hell isn't the weakest of all time and as some, myself included, have pointed out, there are multiple guys who just in the last 10 years have been just as (if not more) average when comparing them to the very best CS winners of this most recent era.

It was a weaker Conn Smythe and there was another viable candidate. No doubt, it will be a win that will draw more controversy than it deserves for years to come.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

is it fair to say that a hypothetical kessel cs would be in the nieuwendyk, justin williams, claude lemieux category? because i don't think many are much happier with those decisions than with the niedermayer one.

 

[Big Phil]

OK.

3 players who have had just as "weak" CS in just the past decade.

Kane 2013
Niedermayer 2007
Ward 2006

The bottom two for sure. I would liken Kane's though to Crosby's this year. Same amount of points, were all over the ice every time. Kane had 88 shots on net in the 2013 playoffs. By far more than any other of his Cup winning years. He had two game winning goals also. Ironically the most he had in a playoff year was 4 in 2014. I mean, I've seen him with a more dominant spring (2010) but I really think it came down to him and Crawford anyway. Kane in 2013 isn't legendary or one of the best but it is definitely above Niedermayer and Ward.

And of those, I would say Crosby's is more in line with Niedermayer's: good (not great) runs but no one else did better so they deserved it.

Ward and Kane bug me a little more, as (IMHO) Brind'Amour and Keith were significantly more deserving.

The 2007 Ducks and 2016 Pens were very similar I thought. Think of the candidates for each team:

Ducks: Pronger, Niedermayer, Getzlaf, Selanne, Pahlsson, Giguere
Pens: Kessel, Crosby, Letang, Murray, to a lesser extent Malkin (although he was 5th for sure)

The difference is the Ducks had an opponent (Alfredsson) that would have been just as good of a pick while I don't think anyone was saying Couture deserved it over Crosby or Kessel despite a great run himself.

 

[Big Phil]

is it fair to say that a hypothetical kessel cs would be in the nieuwendyk, justin williams, claude lemieux category? because i don't think many are much happier with those decisions than with the niedermayer one.

Sounds about right. Although in Claude's case I am not sure who really "deserved" it more. Or even Nieuwendyk's case although I know a lot prefer Modano, but not me. Williams...............man, if you had a 5 headed coin with the names: Doughty, Williams, Kopitar, Gaborik and Carter you would have done just as well. That was well spread out.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

just as a thought experiment, would it be unreasonable if the two voters who left kessel completely off went letang, jones, murray?

Or Bonino & Couture & Burns?

Sometimes there is no clear cut winner. This was one of those years. I didn't think Crosby should have won, but that doesn't mean the Conn Smythe will not add to his legacy.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Or Bonino & Couture & Burns?

Sometimes there is no clear cut winner. This was one of those years. I didn't think Crosby should have won, but that doesn't mean the Conn Smythe will not add to his legacy.

i chose those three guys because letang got two first place votes, jones got two second place votes, and murray got four thirds. so two letang, jones, murray ballots (ie, excluding both crosby and kessel) might actually have happened, unlikely as it may be.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

i chose those three guys because letang got two first place votes, jones got two second place votes, and murray got four thirds. so two letang, jones, murray ballots (ie, excluding both crosby and kessel) might actually have happened, unlikely as it may be.

Sorry, my bad.

I was in fantasy land, you were in the real world.

 

[ImporterExporter]

I'm just glad that the voters didn't give Couture a bunch of votes because he had the most points. In fact he didn't get a single 1st or 2nd place vote. Coming into the finals I wouldn't have even put him in the top 2 (maybe 3) from the Sharks. Absolutely thought Pavelski and Burns were the main cogs through the WCF's.

 

[Big Phil]

I'm just glad that the voters didn't give Couture a bunch of votes because he had the most points. In fact he didn't get a single 1st or 2nd place vote. Coming into the finals I wouldn't have even put him in the top 2 (maybe 3) from the Sharks. Absolutely thought Pavelski and Burns were the main cogs through the WCF's.

Or Jones. He probably wins it if the Sharks take it. He'd have needed to be even better to win and he'd have been almost a lock.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

is it fair to say that a hypothetical kessel cs would be in the nieuwendyk, justin williams, claude lemieux category? because i don't think many are much happier with those decisions than with the niedermayer one.

Kind of seems like the Claude Lemieux one becomes more controversial as time goes on. I know Stevens was a good candidate too, but I don't really remember anyone at the time being too upset to see Claude get it. m I wrong here?

 

[Big Phil]

Kind of seems like the Claude Lemieux one becomes more controversial as time goes on. I know Stevens was a good candidate too, but I don't really remember anyone at the time being too upset to see Claude get it. m I wrong here?

No, you aren't wrong. I don't know who else could have won. Brodeur played well, had great numbers, but he was a young goalie then and the trap helped his numbers more that year than his own play. He wasn't the "Brodeur" that we eventually came to know quite yet.

Richer had 21 points to lead the team. Broten had 19. MacLean 18 and then Claude 16. But Claude had 13 goals, by far more than anyone else. Plus his usual agitating self, three game winners and to top it off there wasn't a standout on New Jersey or even someone on Detroit that deserved it more (Fedorov would have been the one if anything).

By the way, off topic but has there been a more American-laden team to win the Cup than the 1995 Devils?