Bear of Bad News
Your Third or Fourth Favorite HFBoards Admin
- Sep 27, 2005
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I dont think you really realize how huge 151 playoffs wins is.
Brodeur is what? 35 years old approx?
If Brodeur was to win the stanley cup for the next 2 seasons.
That would put him at 37 years old STILL trailing Roy PO wins record by 25 wins....
(Please note that i gave a generous back-to-back Stanley cup wins for Brodeur in this example and that he would still be trailing by a cup run and a half After)
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Roy playoffs wins record is not a record that Brodeur will take.
A lot of really interesting thoughts in here. Personally, I think stats are only so useful and it is nearly impossible to compare goalies from different eras unless you've seen them play first hand. I've been watching hockey since the late 70s and if I had to pick one guy, there is no hesitation ... I would take Patrick Roy in a flat second. But I couldn't realistically call him the best ever without having seen guys like Plante, Durnan, Hall, Sawchuk, etc.
One thing, however, which has always stood really tall to me was Plante's comeback run. Plante was clearly great with Montreal, but his seasons with St. Louis and Toronto, while he was in his forties, solidified his greatness. I thought his Hart season was also quite impressive, as he won it the season Harvey was traded. Not to mention some of the innovations he brought to the position.
If I had to pick a guy I have personally seen, Patrick Roy hands down. If I had to pick the all-time best, based solely on his impact in his day, his ability to win, his abilty to elevate his game in the playoffs, etc ... I'd probably go with Plante.
One thing, however, which has always stood really tall to me was Plante's comeback run. Plante was clearly great with Montreal, but his seasons with St. Louis and Toronto, while he was in his forties, solidified his greatness. I thought his Hart season was also quite impressive, as he won it the season Harvey was traded. Not to mention some of the innovations he brought to the position.
If I had to pick a guy I have personally seen, Patrick Roy hands down. If I had to pick the all-time best, based solely on his impact in his day, his ability to win, his abilty to elevate his game in the playoffs, etc ... I'd probably go with Plante.
Fact: It is not possible for a team to possess both good defencemen, and good goaltending. One is ALWAYS leetching off the other.
I still find it funny that Roy is seen as such a "clutch" goalie, when he LOST more Game 7's than any goalie in NHL history! Had he not choaked a few times, he might have won 6 Cups, not be tied with Sawchuk at 4!
Oh, and Bobby Hull had the hardest shot EVER, and Sawchuk played against him without a mask for a few years! Let's see Roy stick his yap in there against a 115 MPH shot bareheaded!
Roy is one of the all-time greats, yes, but not in the top 5 in my book. He is below Sawchuk, Hall, Plante, Hasek, Dryden, and Durnan at least.
Oh, and Bobby Hull had the hardest shot EVER, and Sawchuk played against him without a mask for a few years! Let's see Roy stick his yap in there against a 115 MPH shot bareheaded!
Roy is one of the all-time greats, yes, but not in the top 5 in my book. He is below Sawchuk, Hall, Plante, Hasek, Dryden, and Durnan at least.
Bear of Bad News
Your Third or Fourth Favorite HFBoards Admin
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When you've played in the most, you're likely to have lost the most as well. Go figure.
And are you telling me that Sawchuk chose not to wear a mask? In fact, as soon as they were fine-tuned, he was wearing one every game and practice.
You can't blame Roy (or any other goalie, for that matter) for taking advantage of the technology available.
He has also won more.
Wouldn't you find it funny that Fuhr is rated as a good goalie yet has allowed the most goals against in history?
MikeD
Registered User
The problem of course is that we're debating goalies from different eras and I just don't think you can do that. You can't compare Sawchuck to Roy or Brodeur because they played during completely different eras with different equipment, team defensive styles, etc.
It's fun to debate but you're never going to have a clearcut "greatest of all time" because there are too many factors.
Besides, no one mentioned Ken Dryden and while he didn't have the best GAA or save %, he does have six Stanley Cups.
I agree that goalies need to be broken into two catagories. Modern Era goalies had much more to work with in terms of gear, training and the evolution of the game by rule and systems of play. Put patrick Roy in the gear that Sawchuck or Dryden wore and what would you have? Put Tretiak in modern gear and give him 3 years of his prime, training with a guy like Jukka R and what would you have?
Cup Rings, are won by a team and can not be used to equate a goalies status historically. Who had the most impact on the modernization of the position? Roy, arguably. Who exhibited a fearless character with the heart of a lion? Dryden, Sawchuck and many others. No modern era goalie can hope to compare in that catagory simply due to the evolution of the gear worn. Does a goalies ability to bring himself up by the bootstraps training himself, for the most part, count for nothing? Could Roy have done it with out Alliare?
IMO it is a pointless endevour to try and name a greatest of all time. Its simply not possible. There are too many criteria that goalies from both eras that can not be cross scored.
MikeD
Registered User
I think I have the answer.....how about a goalie with a GAA and S% nearly identical at an asounding .974 S% and .987 GAA w/11 consecutive shut outs? That would be my youngest Son, Alexander Davis AKA "The Domigator). Wink wink...lol Currently a Bantam Minor this coming season.
Bear of Bad News
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The Kingslayer
Registered User
roy won with doctored equipment......
look the pics of him in the late 80's and the late 90's...see a difference?
Bear of Bad News
Your Third or Fourth Favorite HFBoards Admin
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That's a pretty serious accusation. Do you have any sources to back up this claim? Or are you claiming that you personally inspected his equipment?
Glenn Hall - Seven first team all-star selctions ( I equate that to today's Vezina). More than any other goalie. Remember he played when the Vezina was awarded for least goals allowed not top goalie.
Hasek has six first team selections (and six corresponding Vezinas) and 2 Harts.
Sawchuk had three first team selections.
Hasek has six first team selections (and six corresponding Vezinas) and 2 Harts.
Sawchuk had three first team selections.
Bear of Bad News
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Actually what chose it for him was taking a Bobby Hull slapshot full in the face in 1963.
Bear of Bad News
Your Third or Fourth Favorite HFBoards Admin
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MikeD
Registered User
Actually, Roy admited to his cheating ways. Acknowleged wedges under the shoulders of the CA to lift it, cord under the jersey to make it flair open to catch pucks, over sized pads beyond his size needs, Cheater blocks on the pants to help close the 5 hole, over size glove pocket as well as blocker boards.
Not much different than the goalies of today who use the ODB cheater blade on their skates. At one point the mask was considered a cheat. Just a matter of perspective I guess.
Not much different than the goalies of today who use the ODB cheater blade on their skates. At one point the mask was considered a cheat. Just a matter of perspective I guess.
Yeah it was the same interview where Gretzky revealed he was an alien and Bobby Orr admitted he was a robot from the future.
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