meehan
Registered User
Yeah, because Grant Fuhr, Billy Smith, Andy Moog, Tom Barrasso, John Vanbiesbrouck and Bill Ranford were just awful.
Would you say any of those goalies are better than Hasek and Brodeur?
Yeah, because Grant Fuhr, Billy Smith, Andy Moog, Tom Barrasso, John Vanbiesbrouck and Bill Ranford were just awful.
Would you say any of those goalies are better than Hasek and Brodeur?
Would you say any of those goalies are better than Hasek and Brodeur?
No. But most of them are probably better than every goalie playing today not named Hasek or Brodeur.
Are Vezina's the ultimate sign of goalie greatness? I don't think it is. I don't think the first-team all-star selection is the ultimate sign of goalie greatness, either. I think playoff performance is. And last I checked, Roy had more playoff MVP awards than anyone. Now, that's not the only thing that matters, but it's significant. I think Bill Durnan is an all-time great, but I would rather have Turk Broda, because Broda was better in the playoffs.Not saying either is better than Roy but how many Vezina's has he won since Brodeur and Hasek came into the league? Most of Roy's individual hardware was won when the league didn't have as many great goalies.
Hard to say. But define "great goalies", because that's the gist of your claim above.
Are Vezina's the ultimate sign of goalie greatness? I don't think it is. I don't think the first-team all-star selection is the ultimate sign of goalie greatness, either. I think playoff performance is. And last I checked, Roy had more playoff MVP awards than anyone. Now, that's not the only thing that matters, but it's significant. I think Bill Durnan is an all-time great, but I would rather have Turk Broda, because Broda was better in the playoffs.
I think Roy would be lauded by many as the best ever even if he didn't win a Vezina, simply because he was so good in the playoffs. He had his playoff hiccups, but if you're entering a playoff, he's definitely the guy you want on your team over Brodeur and Hasek. Of all the records he holds, I think the most impressive is that he's hockey's all-time leader in NHL post-season games played, at least for the time being, anyways.
Roy was a great regular season goalie and played anywhere from 10-20 less regular season games per year than Brodeur.Not saying either is better than Roy but how many Vezina's has he won since Brodeur and Hasek came into the league? Most of Roy's individual hardware was won when the league didn't have as many great goalies.
More than capable, yes. But not close to the level of Roy.Both Hasek and Brodeur have proven more than capable of winning big games;
Roy carried 2 good (not great) teams to Stanley Cups in the playoffs.Hasek carried good (not great) teams fairly deep into the playoffs.
He has won the most. Including the most important one, Game 7 SCF vs. Martin Brodeur.And for all the talk about Roy being the guy every wants in net for THE big game, his record is playoff game 7s is mediocre.
Roy was a great regular season goalie and played anywhere from 10-20 less regular season games per year than Brodeur.
Roy is the greatest post-season goalie and where he made his name for himself and justifies in my mind having the title of being the greatest of all time.
What I found simply amazing this post-season is that Brodeur coming into the playoffs had played 153 games. Roy had won 151.
More than capable, yes. But not close to the level of Roy.
Roy carried 2 good (not great) teams to Stanley Cups in the playoffs.
He has won the most. Including the most important one, Game 7 SCF vs. Martin Brodeur.
with all this brodeur talk, i believe sawchuk's greatness as the greatest of them all is being diminished.....
i was born in 1971, so i did not see him play, however by reading books on this goalie, i firmly believe he was the greater one.....
but with brodeur destroying the record books in terms of wins and shutouts, now all experts point to him as the greatest goalie....
i wonder how "great" martin brodeur would have been if he played in high scoring 80's where playing defense was afterthought...
any thoughts...
He was the Best, if he wore the equipment they have today he'd have 400 shutouts for his career.
The Canadiens teams weren't that good though. And the 1993 team needed an awful lot of overtime to get anywhere, and without a good goalie they would've been done really quick.Both Roy's Canadiens teams were better than any of Hasek's Sabres teams.
I'll take a game 7 win in the Stanley Cup final over a Game 7 loss in the Western Conference Final against a bought team.He has also lost the most. 6-7 record in game 7s, 0.907 sv%. Brodeur: 5-3, 0.928 Hasek: 1-2, 0.946. And about memorable performances, how about game 7 Detroit/Colorado in 2002 (which basically was the stanley cup finals that year)? How well did Roy do against Hasek then? I'd say that was a pretty important game 7 that Roy stunk in.
Now that Brodeur doesn't have Niedermayer/Stevens, I'm going to doubt it.Brodeur also a some years left in his career; it probably will be alot closer by then.
The Canadiens teams weren't that good though. And the 1993 team needed an awful lot of overtime to get anywhere, and without a good goalie they would've been done really quick.
I'll take a game 7 win in the Stanley Cup final over a Game 7 loss in the Western Conference Final against a bought team.
Now that Brodeur doesn't have Niedermayer/Stevens, I'm going to doubt it.
Yeah because the Avs were really cash strapped and didn't have any top tier talent....
How much of that top talent did they get through unrestricted free agency?Yeah because the Avs were really cash strapped and didn't have any top tier talent....
Actually that game in 02 was for the Western Conference Championship. Regardless of who is the best team or not, anything can happen in the finals.Also Brodeur has won a game 7 for the cup, posted a shutout too. And again, that game 7 in 2002 basically was for the cup.
They're a good team but I'd bet Brodeur won't win another cup.The Devils remain a strong team even without those HOF defensemen.
You know you're reaching when.Also, how many of those overtime goals did Patrick Roy score?
Of the players on the Avalanche 2001 Stanley Cup team, name those players who weren't acquired through the draft or through trade.
My point was that the Avalanche were a great team as well
How much of that top talent did they get through unrestricted free agency?
Actually that game in 02 was for the Western Conference Championship. Regardless of who is the best team or not, anything can happen in the finals.
They're a good team but I'd bet Brodeur won't win another cup.
You know you're reaching when.
Then it was a non-sequitur remark that didn't counter the point to which you were responding.
My comments were in regards to Hull (who led the team in playoff goals and a big reason why they won the cup) and Hasek who I thought they signed as a UFA but after looking it up I see I was incorrect. My bad on that one.Why would I argue team building strategies in a thread about great goaltenders? And furthermore, he brought up that the Red Wings were "bought" (which, on a side note is ridiculous considering the core of that team was drafted or traded for).
I mean seriously, even in Roy's great 1993 playoffs 3 of his overtime wins came because his team scored less than 3 minutes into the first overtime (twice in the finals they scored OT goals in less than a minute) and he only went into 2OT once that year. It simply is not all him.
In fairness to Roy, playoff overtimes were usually short in the early 1990s (this makes sense, as those seasons are much higher-scoring than today). Of the 28 playoff games that went into overtime in 1993, just 6 went into double-OT (the longest game in the entire postseason was decided after 14:50 of double-OT).
In the playoffs, 50% of overtimes (14 of 28 games) lasted at least 10 minutes. Roy played in 11 overtime games and 6 lasted longer than 10 minutes. So, Roy didn't benefit from shorter overtimes (relative to any of his peers).
The average OT game lasted approximately 12 minutes in 1993. The average OT game that Roy played in last 11 minutes. Again, these numbers show that Roy was no luckier than any of his peers. The only way that Roy's 1993 playoff run appears lucky is if one ignores the context and treats the overtimes as if they occured in 2007.
(Of course, I agree with your point that a goalie is never solely responsible for his team's victory or defeat).