Is Patrick Roy the greatest of all time?

Sadekuuro

Registered User
Aug 23, 2005
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Wow, great work with the playoff OT records Doctor No, thanks for sharing that. I have a spreadsheet for playoff overtime by team, now I'm going to have to add a goaltender tab.

You have (Martin) Brodeur as 16-24, but New Jersey as a team has a 17-24 record from 1993-94 through 2011-12. Was there a decision he was not the goaltender of record for?
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,163
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Wow, great work with the playoff OT records Doctor No, thanks for sharing that. I have a spreadsheet for playoff overtime by team, now I'm going to have to add a goaltender tab.

You have (Martin) Brodeur as 16-24, but New Jersey as a team has a 17-24 record from 1993-94 through 2011-12. Was there a decision he was not the goaltender of record for?

Chris Terreri played on May 7th, 1994 vs Boston and earned the victory in a 5-4 overtime game.
 

Bear of Bad News

Your Third or Fourth Favorite HFBoards Admin
Sep 27, 2005
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Wow, great work with the playoff OT records Doctor No, thanks for sharing that. I have a spreadsheet for playoff overtime by team, now I'm going to have to add a goaltender tab.

You have (Martin) Brodeur as 16-24, but New Jersey as a team has a 17-24 record from 1993-94 through 2011-12. Was there a decision he was not the goaltender of record for?

Thanks!

My first thought was a typo, but Hockey Outsider is right about the Terreri game.
 

BraveCanadian

Registered User
Jun 30, 2010
14,782
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The only hockey poster to survive the 20-year transition from my garage in the 1990s all the way through to my current apartment is Felix Potvin. He's framed and hanging in the walk-in closet. I've told my wife that when we buy our new house, Potvin comes with us. Non-negotiable. :laugh:

Don't want to get toooo far off topic but I just always liked how you could tell it was him immediately just by his unique stance and playing style.

Plus, for a while, he was a really good goaltender!
 

Zippy316

aka Zippo
Aug 17, 2012
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New Jersey
Brodeur vs. Hasek vs. Roy Question

I know it has been hashed over here plenty of times, and I'm sure very thoroughly. However, I personally just want to see some clarification over some things.

Why exactly do people rate Hasek and Roy far above Brodeur in their respective careers?

More or less, I'm just curious of the arguments for both. Just for an example, I know some people constantly claim that Brodeur was a product of the Devils system which he can attribute to his numbers and stats. However, I feel like people who argue that conveniently ignore the fact that his puck handling, rebound control, and his style of play is a huge part to why the trap of the 90s and early 2000s was so effective.

That's just one example, but I'm curious to here the arguments, especially since now you can compare the conclusion of all their careers.
 

Bear of Bad News

Your Third or Fourth Favorite HFBoards Admin
Sep 27, 2005
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I know it has been hashed over here plenty of times, and I'm sure very thoroughly. However, I personally just want to see some clarification over some things.

Why exactly do people rate Hasek and Roy far above Brodeur in their respective careers?

It'd probably be helpful if you took some of the threads where this has been hashed over, and ask specific questions to the individuals there. Quite frankly, it's been discussed to death.

In the meantime, I'm going to look for a thread to merge this with.
 

Zippy316

aka Zippo
Aug 17, 2012
19,532
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New Jersey
It'd probably be helpful if you took some of the threads where this has been hashed over, and ask specific questions to the individuals there. Quite frankly, it's been discussed to death.

In the meantime, I'm going to look for a thread to merge this with.

I couldn't find it. Thanks. I kept searching Brodeur vs. Hasek vs. Roy and tons of threads like that. I knew there was one somewhere.

EDIT: This is more of a Roy vs. Hasek thread. Why is Brodeur omitted from this discussion? Just looking at some of the in-depth stats I'm sure there's reasons, but I'm curious as to what they are.
 
Last edited:

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
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Connecticut
I know it has been hashed over here plenty of times, and I'm sure very thoroughly. However, I personally just want to see some clarification over some things.

Why exactly do people rate Hasek and Roy far above Brodeur in their respective careers?

More or less, I'm just curious of the arguments for both. Just for an example, . However, I feel like people who argue that conveniently ignore the fact that his puck handling, rebound I know some people constantly claim that Brodeur was a product of the Devils system which he can attribute to his numbers and statscontrol, and his style of play is a huge part to why the trap of the 90s and early 2000s was so effective.

That's just one example, but I'm curious to here the arguments, especially since now you can compare the conclusion of all their careers.

That's one (big) part of it.

If you watched the Devils in their heyday, there were many Brodeur shutouts where he may have been forced to make 1 or 2 big saves. Certainly played in more sub-20 shot games than anyone else. Yet he never had great save percentage numbers.

To me, his puck handling is the reason he's considered an all-time great. But I wouldn't put him in the top 5.
 

Yamaguchi*

Guest
Tretiak is the greatest of all time.
He has won everything, he's the best of both worlds. He trained netminders like Hasek, Brodeur and Belfour.


I would rank Hasek and perhaps Sawchuk above Roy.
And then there is the incredible postseason performer Billy Smith who can compete with Roy for the last spot in top 5 of all time.
 

Gigantor The Goalie

Speak for the Goalies
Feb 4, 2012
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New London
Tretiak is the greatest of all time.
He has won everything, he's the best of both worlds. He trained netminders like Hasek, Brodeur and Belfour.


I would rank Hasek and perhaps Sawchuk above Roy.
And then there is the incredible postseason performer Billy Smith who can compete with Roy for the last spot in top 5 of all time.

:laugh:
 

Ogopogo*

Guest
Glenn Hall is the only man to be voted the NHL's best goaltender 7 times! He also won a Conn Smythe - he is the best goaltender of all time.
 

drganon

Registered User
Jun 24, 2014
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I personally view Hasek as the best, but can definitely see the case for Roy as well. After that, I go with Plante, Sawchuk, and Hall.
 

Killion

Registered User
Feb 19, 2010
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Sawchuk for me. Havent seen anyone do anything that tops his performances with everything up for grabs. Lots of outstanding performances sure and great careers, but no, sorry, Final Series, I want Sawchuk in there. Be "comfortable" with others but still....
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
11,915
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I think people in general tend to underestimate the Iron Curtain thing, the shift of milieu thing, the shift of big/small ice surface thing, the strength of team thing, the Ed Belfour thing (in this particular case), the team dependence thing, et cetera. Just look at how long it took for Larionov and Fetisov to find their thing in the NHL in Detroit, and that was still a thing designated to play on their strengths after they had already gone through other NHL teams with not as much success (although they had still played respectably well in Vancouver/San Jose & New Jersey).

Dominik Hasek's WC stats in the 80s, before he became an NHL goalie, just b r u t a l i z e s John Vanbiesbrouck's WC stats in the 80s, for instance, when he was a Vezina winning NHL starting goalie.

(games played within parenthesis)

Hasek: 2.50 (2), 2.12 (9), 2.19 (9), 2.10 (10), 2.50 (8)
Vanbiesbrouck: 5.64 (9), 4.01 (7), 4.53 (5), 4.67 (10)

Now, I would say I'm of the opinion myself that I think Hasek was probably generally a better goalie than Vanbiesbrouck in the 1980s, but you probably shouldn't come to that conclusion simply by looking at those numbers posted above, because they seem to indicate that he was twice as good. Firstly, Czechoslovakia was a better team internationally than the Americans, and they played a very sneaky game/system ideally suited for the big ice game, and all those tourneys were played in big ice in Europe. Secondly, if you look at Hasek's and Vanbiesbrouck's Canada Cup stats from the same time sphere

Hasek: 4.00 (4), 3.33 (6), 3.60 (5)
Vanbiesbrouck: 2.00 (4), 3.00 (1)

the tables seems a bit turned, although by not as large gaps (and with a bit smaller sample size).

When Kent Nilsson scored that "Forsberg" goal on Vanbiesbrouck during the 1989 Worlds the Swedish broadcasters didn't even mention Vanbiesbrouck's name, they just called him "the American goalie". If some random/casual Swedish fan looked at that goal, with that stream, and then took a quick look at Vanbiesbrouck's WC stats over the decade, and then was told this Vanbiesbrouck guy was actually a Vezina winning NHL starting goalie with the New York Rangers, they might have come to the (perhaps relatively silly) conclusion that "lol, we'll just send Tommy Söderström over there, he'll contend for the Vezina in any given year, at least he can stop a beach ball if it's multi-colored, hahaha". Because that's how I feel about judging Hasek on 2 games he played against Jimmy Waite in the early stages of his NHL career.
 

Neutrinos

Registered User
Sep 23, 2016
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To be fair to Roy, we'll disregard some of his bloated playoff numbers from the late 80's, and we'll compare their playoff stats starting from the time Hasek entered the league in 1991 up until Roy's retirement in 2003:

From '91 - '03, Roy's playoffs stats:
2.27 GAA, .921 SV%

From '91 - '03, Hasek's playoff stats:
2.03 GAA, .927 SV%
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,174
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Regina, SK
To be fair to Roy, we'll disregard some of his bloated playoff numbers from the late 80's, and we'll compare their playoff stats starting from the time Hasek entered the league in 1991 up until Roy's retirement in 2003:

From '91 - '03, Roy's playoffs stats:
2.27 GAA, .921 SV%

From '91 - '03, Hasek's playoff stats:
2.03 GAA, .927 SV%

"To be fair to Roy, we'll just remove a handful of his best seasons..."
 

Neutrinos

Registered User
Sep 23, 2016
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"To be fair to Roy, we'll just remove a handful of his best seasons..."

Including those seasons would've bloated Roy's numbers, so I felt it best to disregard them for the sake of a head-to-head statistical comparison

I'm also disregarding Hasek's 2007 playoff run where he had a 1.82 GAA and a .923 SV% in 18 games

You're more than welcome to crunch your own numbers using your own set of parameters
 

quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
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Hockeytown, MI
To be fair to Roy, we'll disregard some of his bloated playoff numbers from the late 80's, and we'll compare their playoff stats starting from the time Hasek entered the league in 1991 up until Roy's retirement in 2003:

From '91 - '03, Roy's playoffs stats:
2.27 GAA, .921 SV%

From '91 - '03, Hasek's playoff stats:
2.03 GAA, .927 SV%

So rather than solve an issue that you acknowledge exists, you run a statistical analysis that treats a save in 1991 like a save in 2003 because...?

Cumulative save percentage reports do not work. Asking people to crunch their own numbers is not really justification for presenting statistics that you know are so bad that you have to excise data just to make them seem passable.

.929 across 647 shots when the league average was .885? Better mix that with stats from 10 years later when the average was .909. For reasons.
 

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