He is arguably the greatest playoff performer in NHL history, and one of the biggest big game performers ever (who can forget that 60+ save performance against Boston when he had the flu?)….
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Roy's my choice for greatest of all-time:
First, to get the save percentage stuff out of the way:
1) adjusted for era, his regular season prime is a close second to Dominik Hasek (just talking about goalies of the save percentage era - the last few decades)
2) he has more longevity/consistency as a top goalie than Hasek
3) no matter how you measure it, his playoff resume blows everyone else away
Non save-percentage stuff:
1) he was a top 2 player on 4 Cups winners. Can any other goalie in history say that?
2) my personal eye test - it's not uncommon for a goalie to have 1 or 2 playoffs where he totally shut the door on the opposition. For Roy... it was expected in a way that it wasn't for anyone else. 2001 finals - "not again, not to my team!"
I realize that Hasek is the trendy pick now, but I would imagine that most NHL fans who are old enough to digest both the careers of Roy and Hasek would pick Roy. (Indeed, Roy finishes ahead on most establishment lists).
First, to get the save percentage stuff out of the way:
1) adjusted for era, his regular season prime is a close second to Dominik Hasek (just talking about goalies of the save percentage era - the last few decades)
2) he has more longevity/consistency as a top goalie than Hasek
3) no matter how you measure it, his playoff resume blows everyone else away
Non save-percentage stuff:
1) he was a top 2 player on 4 Cups winners. Can any other goalie in history say that?
2) my personal eye test - it's not uncommon for a goalie to have 1 or 2 playoffs where he totally shut the door on the opposition. For Roy... it was expected in a way that it wasn't for anyone else. 2001 finals - "not again, not to my team!"
I realize that Hasek is the trendy pick now, but I would imagine that most NHL fans who are old enough to digest both the careers of Roy and Hasek would pick Roy. (Indeed, Roy finishes ahead on most establishment lists).
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
The greatest what? You seem to be missing a noun.
...actually, forget it; it's fine how it is. Patrick Roy is the greatest.
...actually, forget it; it's fine how it is. Patrick Roy is the greatest.
Plural
Registered User
- Mar 10, 2011
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I think HoH board actually has Roy ahead by notable margin. At least, that's my interpretation of it. Main board has Hasek as clear #1. But it seems like the tides are changing. Roy is catching up on Hasek and I expect him to pull ahead in few years. (Or at least hope, not sure if expect is a correct word for it)
Of course Roy has the obvious edge over Hašek when it comes to playoff hardware because unlike him, he was playing for very good teams for a very long time, but there was a certain aura around Hašek that I don't remember to associate with any other goalie, including Roy. All the stuff about whether Hašek is still a mere human, that the best thing to do is not to talk about him, the Lindros's quote from 1998 ("Expect the unexpected")... I don't think Roy ever had this unique ability to get into opponents' heads. He also lost both direct match-ups against Hašek.
http://articles.philly.com/1998-04-20/sports/25766958_1_flyers-host-flyers-loss-flyers-general-manager
http://articles.philly.com/1998-04-20/sports/25766958_1_flyers-host-flyers-loss-flyers-general-manager
Beef Invictus
Revolutionary Positivity
I thought the consensus is that Hasek has the higher peak, but Roy has the better career overall?
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
You're kidding about Roy not getting into shooters heads right?
AND Roy did not ALWAYS play for very good teams. The '93 Habs are among the weakest teams to win the Cup since the O6, at least in the bottom 5 out of 45+ teams.
Anyway...couple of other things to add to Devil's list...
Roy's will to compete blows Hasek's out of the water. Roy has an emergency appendectomy, misses a single PO game.
Hasek is well documented for quiting on no less than 3 separate teams.
Roy has lost more series in 7 games than he has lost in 4, 5 and 6 games combined.
Roy's PO OT record is of the absolutely ridiculous variety.
40-16 (and even more ridiculously, 24-6 as a Hab). His closest competition is Belfour at 20-22.
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
No, I think it's probably a pretty even split here. Hasek seemed ahead here until we stopped using cumulative reports of save percentages across multiple seasons, started looking towards adjusting save percentage, calculated quality games for every season, and put the playoff runs in better context against each other. In the end, what they offer is different enough that one person can prioritize one aspect and get one result, and another person can prioritize a different aspect and get a different result.
If you're looking for the best goaltender at their very best, you're probably in the Sawchuk, Parent, Hasek camp.
If you're looking for the most reliable goaltender, you're probably in the Plante, Roy, Brodeur camp.
If you're looking for the best playoff goaltender, it is Roy.
I'm of the opinion that more than any other position, the goaltender needs to be reliable, so I'll take a lesser peak for a de facto captain without Hasek's baggage. More than that, I think playoff Patrick Roy had the same it-factor that those high-peak goaltenders did.
From 1993-1997, Patrick Roy played 65 playoff games. In those games, Patrick Roy allowed only 65.39% of what an average goalie was expected to allow. To put those 65 consecutive playoff games into perspective, Roy was playing at a higher level than Tim Thomas in the 2011 playoffs when he recorded a .940 (65.51%). And this is a sample that is excluding three additional Finals runs (61.17% in 1986, 65.84% in 1989, 62.58% in 2001).
And the idea that Roy didn't get into people's heads as Rexor said is rather misinformed.
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
In the save percentage era, they had the highest win threshold of all Stanley Cup winners:
1993 - Patrick Roy | .901 | .871 | 76.78%
1986 - Patrick Roy | .891 | .874 | 86.24%
2011 - Tim Thomas | .910 | .908 | 96.92%
2001 - Patrick Roy | .894 | .893 | 99.60%
2003 - Martin Brodeur | .904 | .904 | 100.07%
By comparison, the win threshold to get the 1999 Buffalo Sabres into the Finals was 95.48%.
The Stanley Cup win threshold for the 2002 Detroit Red Wings was 125.67%.
The Stanley Cup win threshold for the 2008 Detroit Red Wings was 138.53%.
MadArcand
Whaletarded
Pretty sure that's Roy nowadays, especially in the wake of the top goalies project.
If I recall correctly, Roy only won because Canadiens1958 voted Hasek in 7th place.
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
Not sure how picking Roy is trendy when he was largely considered the best 10 years ago until people on the internet started misusing save percentage.
MadArcand
Whaletarded
Well, I don't know who was considered better 10-years ago in NA. I know it was Hasek by far here in Europe, though. So it's like they're evening out due to better communication lately.
MadArcand
Whaletarded
quoipourquoi
Goaltender
Not to be a jerk, but maybe consider letting that go, kmad, for four reasons:
1. Canadiens1958 had Hasek in 7th on his original approved list.
2. Canadiens1958 would have had to put Hasek in 3rd place for him to pass Roy.
3. It really doesn't matter; the important thing was the discussion.
4. YOU single-handedly cost Alec Connell two spots on the list because you forgot to put him on your Round 10 ballot.
What are you doing throwing stones at Canadiens1958 from your glass house, kmad?
MadArcand
Whaletarded
This should be the gist of it. Roy or Hasek comes down to preference, and both choices are very defensible. Brodeur over either, let alone both... ugh.
Sure, as any great goalie, Roy was able to get into people's heads but not to the extent that Hašek did. Does anyone recall stories of teams trying to prepare themselves mentally before facing Roy, or publicly expressing their fears of him? (This is a serious question, I don't know.)
Better and Greater aren't always the same thing.
To me - no question Roy was the greatest goalie ever.
Better tends to denote peak, whereas greater is more career. Both score very highly in both categories, yet Roy for career and Hasek for peak might make sense.
It seems that people are willing to downplay Hasek's save percentage while completely ignoring his trophy case. He doesn't have the playoff hardware obviously, but the two Harts (to Roy's zero) and six Vezina trophies while playing for a pretty weak team impress me. As far as longevity goes, Hasek was what, 27 before he got his shot as a starter? The iron curtain may have had something to do with that. And he played professionally well into his 40s. He had longevity too.
To me, Hasek is the greatest with Roy right on his tail. I've no issue with people taking Roy, but I do have an issue with people downplaying Hasek's accomplishments in the process.
To me, Hasek is the greatest with Roy right on his tail. I've no issue with people taking Roy, but I do have an issue with people downplaying Hasek's accomplishments in the process.
The fact that I forgot Connell doesn't have any bearing on the fact that Canadiens1958 intentionally sabotaged the project to get his preferred ranking. There is no justification for putting Hasek 7th.
